What is Free Will?

[docrob57]

As there are numerous discussions/arguments going around these days on whether or not God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge, and, if so, whether or not that negates the possibility of free will, I thought it might be helpful if we could step back and examine the question of what the various parties to the discussion mean by "free will."

My definition would be that a free will choice or behavior is one that is done without being forced by an external entity. For example, the decision whether or not to vote. In some countries, voting is required by law. Even in these circumstances, some choose not to vote, so some degree of free will is involved, however, if is much less a free choice than in the U.S. where no such legal requirement exists.

Note, that by my definition, a free will decision is not uncaused. A variety of factors go into free will decisions including, but not limited to, our relationship with God, our personality and psycholgical makeup, external circumstances, etc.

How does this compare to other views of free will?

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Doc I'd have to say from what I read in your post I pretty much agree with your definition.

 

[docrob57]

Doc I'd have to say from what I read in your post I pretty much agree with your definition.

Well then, I guess it would be counter-productive to argue with you.

 

[Clete]

Thomas P. Flint defines libertarianism (free will):

"Necessarily, for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."​

Thomas P. Flint, "Two Accounts of Providence," in Divine and Human Action, ed. T. V. Morris [Ithaca, N.Y. Cornel University Press, 1988], p. 175

So in english this is saying that whether caused or uncaused, influenced by nature or by other agents or neither, any performed action is not free if all of the factors that lead up to the action are not fully compatible with your having not done the action.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

Thomas P. Flint defines libertarianism (free will):

"Necessarily, for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."​

Thomas P. Flint, "Two Accounts of Providence," in Divine and Human Action, ed. T. V. Morris [Ithaca, N.Y. Cornel University Press, 1988], p. 175

So in english this is saying that whether caused or uncaused, influenced by nature or by other agents or neither, any performed action is not free if all of the factors that lead up to the action are not fully compatible with your having not done the action.

Resting in Him,
Clete

First off, thanks for the English, I was getting a little puzzled. Okay, if I say "I went to bed at 10 because I was tired," was going to bed a free will decision?

 

[Clete]

First off, thanks for the English, I was getting a little puzzled. Okay, if I say "I went to bed at 10 because I was tired," was going to bed a free will decision?

It was assuming that all the factors that preceded that action (the history of the world and your life in particular, and the forces of nature as well as the actions of all other agents including your family, God and everyone else) are all collectively compatible with your having not gone to bed at 10.

A really easy way to say it is that your action was free if you were really able to do otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

It was assuming that all the factors that preceded that action (the history of the world and your life in particular, and the forces of nature as well as the actions of all other agents including your family, God and everyone else) are all collectively compatible with your having not gone to bed at 10.

A really easy way to say it is that your action was free if you were really able to do otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hey, being convoluted and obscure is my schtick, knock it off!

Okay, let's assume that we were able to do otherwise, however, as a matter of habit, whenever I get tired to some given level of tiredness, I go to sleep. I don't have to, but I do, because I like to do it that way. Free will?

 

[logos_x]

Obviously our "free" will is contingent upon how much choice we really have, and our ability.

In other words...what I might want to do, and what I can do...could be quite different things.

Try loving your nieghbor for a week or so...you'll understand what I mean soon enough.

 

[docrob57]

Obviously our "free" will is contingent upon how much choice we really have, and our ability.

In other words...what I might want to do, and what I can do...could be quite different things.

Try loving your nieghbor for a week or so...you'll understand what I mean soon enough.

And the reason you assume that I do not love my neighbor is . . .

Anyway, in the scenario I have described, is that a free will choice or not?

 

[logos_x]

It is a choice.

 

[docrob57]

It is a choice.

Okay, I would like to hear more from Clete and/or others on the OT team about their view on this scenario.

 

[Clete]

Hey, being convoluted and obscure is my schtick, knock it off!

It does make you feel sort of smarter than everyone else doesn't it!
I like it! :Cletegetsthebighead:

Okay, let's assume that we were able to do otherwise, however, as a matter of habit, whenever I get tired to some given level of tiredness, I go to sleep. I don't have to, but I do, because I like to do it that way. Free will?

Sure! Predictability doesn't speak to freedom. As long as we are genuinely ABLE to do or to do otherwise we are free.

Are we in agreement here or what?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

It does make you feel sort of smarter than everyone else doesn't it!
I like it! :Cletegetsthebighead:


Sure! Predictability doesn't speak to freedom. As long as we are genuinely ABLE to do or to do otherwise we are free.

Are we in agreement here or what?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yes, just wanted to make sure. OK, I like to translate sentences into equations. It is a sickness. The sentence is, "I went to bed because I was tired." This implies 2 variables, whether or not I go to bed (call it "Y") and how tired I am (call it X).

For simplicity sake, say both variables can take on 2 values:

Y = 1 if the choice is go to bed and = 0 if the choice is not to go to bed.
X= 1 if I am tired and = 0 if I am not tired.

So, the expression Y = X is equivalent to the sentence, and we agree the sentence describes a free will choice. Can I get an amen?

 

[logos_x]

Yes, just wanted to make sure. OK, I like to translate sentences into equations. It is a sickness. The sentence is, "I went to bed because I was tired." This implies 2 variables, whether or not I go to bed (call it "Y") and how tired I am (call it X).

For simplicity sake, say both variables can take on 2 values:

Y = 1 if the choice is go to bed and = 0 if the choice is not to go to bed.
X= 1 if I am tired and = 0 if I am not tired.

So, the expression Y = X is equivalent to the sentence, and we agree the sentence describes a free will choice. Can I get an amen?

Amen...Mr. Data

 

[docrob57]

Amen...Mr. Data

Thank you

 

[Litebeam]

Here is the definition I have come to believe.



CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “choose”. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.



FREE WILL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.



God has free will, we have choice.

 

[docrob57]

Okay, well the point of my initial example is this. We all agree that we are dealing with a free will choice here. However, it is clear that it is also a deterministic process. So much so that we can even express it as a simple equation. Amen to this?

 

[Clete]

Yes, just wanted to make sure. OK, I like to translate sentences into equations. It is a sickness. The sentence is, "I went to bed because I was tired." This implies 2 variables, whether or not I go to bed (call it "Y") and how tired I am (call it X).

For simplicity sake, say both variables can take on 2 values:

Y = 1 if the choice is go to bed and = 0 if the choice is not to go to bed.
X= 1 if I am tired and = 0 if I am not tired.

So, the expression Y = X is equivalent to the sentence, and we agree the sentence describes a free will choice. Can I get an amen?

Nope sorry. No amens from me on this one. I don't think it incorporates enough information. From this equation one would be able to draw the conclusion that you MUST go to bed at 10:00 if you are tired. If that is the case then it Y is not free.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Here is the definition I have come to believe.



CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “choose”. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.



FREE WILL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.



God has free will, we have choice.

This is completely unacceptable. By this one would have to concede that God is indeed the direct creator of every single evil event that has ever taken place. God is not the author of evil and thus your position here is wrong.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

Nope sorry. No amens from me on this one. I don't think it incorporates enough information. From this equation one would be able to draw the conclusion that you MUST go to bed at 10:00 if you are tired. If that is the case then it Y is not free.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Fair enough, let's add a little further information to our model. Let's say that the choice is contingent. In words, "I go to bed when I am sufficiently tired, unless I prefer to do something else." Does this put us back in the realm of free choice?

In going through this exercise, please do not infer any information from the sentences that isn't there. Remember, you decided the sentence that we first started with was a free choice, however, the equation developed says the exact same thing.