What is forgiveness?

[PureX]

Would you say I also cannot know what's in your mind regarding your opinions about love and forgiveness?

Not entirely. But at least I'm 'interactive', so you can ask.

Are you familiar with the concept of Ockham's razor?

Sure. But I also know it's a good excuse for people to make assumptions that they can't prove. :chuckle: Just sayin'.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Not entirely. But at least I'm 'interactive', so you can ask.

Agreed. Where Paul is ambiguous, all we can do is guess at his meaning. I'm also thinking that where Paul is clearer than mud in what he writes, we do know what was in his mind. Writing, after all is putting one's thoughts into written word.

Sure. But I also know it's a good excuse for people to make assumptions that they can't prove. :chuckle: Just sayin'.

Yes, well the concept used by scientists, philosophers and theologians is new to me, but from what I understand it is simply stated: When two explanations of something contradict one another, the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. More precisely, Occam said:

"Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Or one might say the one who assumes the least should be believed the most! So when you say we should assume Paul misunderstood love, and Paul was a poor excuse for a writer, and the so-called experts in Ancient Greek simply botched the job of translating Paul's words, it seems to me those are three assumptions you are making about 1 Corinthians 13.

But what about the biblical scholars who believe Paul understood what love is, clearly defined it in his epistle to the Corinthians, and his words were accurately translated by the world's most capable scholars of the Ancient Greek language? Are such making as many assumptions as you are?

 

[PureX]

Or one might say the one who assumes the least should be believed the most! So when you say we should assume Paul misunderstood love, and Paul was a poor excuse for a writer, and the so-called experts in Ancient Greek simply botched the job of translating Paul's words, it seems to me those are three assumptions you are making about 1 Corinthians 13.

I have not said any of these things. I have said I can't know what was in Paul's mind, but that the text we are discussing is vague. Why is it vague? I don't know. Perhaps it's due to the multiple translations. Perhaps it was intentional, to make us consider it more carefully, as with poetic writing. Or perhaps Paul's thinking was 'vague'. I feel no compulsion to accept or reject any of these hypothesis. I am content to just not know.

But what about the biblical scholars who believe Paul understood what love is, clearly defined it in his epistle to the Corinthians, and his words were accurately translated by the world's most capable scholars of the Ancient Greek language? Are such making as many assumptions as you are?

More, as they are assuming they know something that they can't really know, while I am not.

 

[Eric h]

I don't have a stand. For I don't yet know what forgiveness is.

You seem to have asked a lot of questions, and we have gone past the 260 post count.

So if you had to define forgiveness in a sentence or two, what would you say it was

Nothing should stand in the way of us loving all our neighbours as we love ourselves, we can do nothing greater.

 

[glorydaz]

You seem to have asked a lot of questions, and we have gone past the 260 post count.

I think he's actually giving us a test on "patience" instead of wanting to know about forgiveness. :chuckle:

PureX wins. :thumb:

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

You seem to have asked a lot of questions, and we have gone past the 260 post count.

Eric! Eric! You have given me so many answers. But there's only one answer I seek. Please tell me plainly: What is forgiveness?

If you don't know for sure, that's OK. I don't know, either. But can you blame me for asking?

Nothing should stand in the way of us loving all our neighbours as we love ourselves, we can do nothing greater.

Agreed. But your answer didn't begin with the words, "Forgiveness is..." So are you saying forgiveness is loving all our neighbors as we love ourselves?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I think he's actually giving us a test on "patience" instead of wanting to know about forgiveness. :chuckle:



PureX wins. :thumb:

I suppose the same may be said of you, my friend. I'm still waiting patiently to hear what you believe forgiveness is! But I will forgive you, once I know what forgiveness is.

But please forgive me if you did tell me. If that is the case, simply give me the number for your reply so I may look it up.

 

[JosephR]

for me, forgiveness is the releasing of malice and retribution .

an eye for an eye is fair, but sometimes fair is not enough for what we call love.

Agape of g-d, the message of Jesus.

we see this in early LAW, as a grain sacrifice could be made as where before it was not accepted.

forgiveness is a deal breaker. if you agree to pay me but then cannot, I can forgive the debt.hence breaking the deal legally.....

forgiveness is how love and empathy deals with LAW.

 

[bybee]

for me, forgiveness is the releasing of malice and retribution .

an eye for an eye is fair, but sometimes fair is not enough for what we call love.

Agape of g-d, the message of Jesus.

we see this in early LAW, as a grain sacrifice could be made as where before it was not accepted.

forgiveness is a deal breaker. if you agree to pay me but then cannot, I can forgive the debt.hence breaking the deal legally.....

forgiveness is how love and empathy deals with LAW.

Well said.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

So I think you said this before, but let me be sure. What you also previously said is this: Since the words, "Love is patient," et al. are not really correct, we should assume either (1) Paul misunderstood the truth about love, or (2) Paul made a poor choice of words in his first letter to the Corinthians, or (3) the translators of our English translations of the bible did not accurately translate 1 Corinthians 13. Do I have a good understanding this one premise of yours?

Or a combination of those.

But honestly, I don't see how this matters. I can't know what was in Paul's mind, and I don't really care. What matters to me is what the words say, to me. What do they teach me about love? Perhaps Paul's vagueness was intended to make us take the time to consider the phenomena of love more carefully, as we have been doing. I don't know.

What I do know is that love, like most spiritual phenomena, is a bit of a mystery to me, and to us all. And I learn a little more about it as I go along in life, so long as I remain inquisitive and open-minded about it. But I don't think there is ever going to be a solid answer that can be written down and remain true forever. Because existence is not static, it's dynamic. And we humans are events taking place, not objects in space. So that the truth of things is always changing from our perspective and understanding.

And I'm good with that.

PureX: This post is where I got the idea that you agreed you previously said Paul misunderstood love, did a poor job of explaining love, or the scholars who translated our Bible got it wrong.

Was that not what you intended to convey by your reply? For you said, "Or a combination of those [three]."

 

[Eric h]

Eric! Eric! You have given me so many answers. But there's only one answer I seek. Please tell me plainly: What is forgiveness?

If there is only one answer you seek, how will you recognise that answer if you don't know what it is you are looking for, does that make sense?

Agreed. But your answer didn't begin with the words, "Forgiveness is..." So are you saying forgiveness is loving all our neighbors as we love ourselves?

I believe forgiveness is not letting anything stand in the way of loving ALL your neighbours as you love yourself.

If they have caused an injustice against you and you are angry, or hate someone, how can you love them as yourself?

 

[JosephR]

If there is only one answer you seek, how will you recognise that answer if you don't know what it is you are looking for, does that make sense?

I believe forgiveness is not letting anything stand in the way of loving ALL your neighbours as you love yourself.

If they have caused an injustice against you and you are angry, or hate someone, how can you love them as yourself?

I see it, what you say, if you do not know where it is you cannot find it...its an old philosophical yogeisim saying. at the end of it is we know all, the mind of g-d...Zen said, the only Zen at the top of the mountain you find is what you take with you ...Hebrew g-d said,,"I am that,I am"

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I have not said any of these things.

Please see my reply immediately preceding this one, where you agreed with those three premises.

I have said I can't know what was in Paul's mind, but that the text we are discussing is vague. Why is it vague? I don't know.

Forgive me for being slow to comprehend. For I'm not sure I understand why you think it is vague. Please explain why you hold this opinion.

Perhaps it's due to the multiple translations. Perhaps it was intentional, to make us consider it more carefully, as with poetic writing. Or perhaps Paul's thinking was 'vague'. I feel no compulsion to accept or reject any of these hypothesis. I am content to just not know.

I'm not sure why different translations cause the text to become vague. It seems to me they all convey the same meaning, albeit with different grammar or choice of words.

More, as they are assuming they know something that they can't really know, while I am not.

I apologize for being confused. For it appears the words Paul wrote actually are what he was thinking, and those words in 1 Corinthians 13 appear me to be chrystal clear. But I suppose I'll change my mind after you explain why they're only clear as mud to you.

You see, after our discussion, it's now apparent to me that Paul is either using personification or is speaking quite literally. As mentioned earlier, the words, "Love is patient. Love is kind..." and so on only make sense if they are describing a person: "[He] is patient. [He] is kind..."

As we discussed, Paul couldn't mean love is patience and kindness, since he didn't use the words patience and kindness. Moreover, he couldn't mean love is being patient and being kind, for he didn't use the word being.

The most logical inference left me is that Paul meant what he wrote, I think. Now that seems to leave me only two likely options:

1. Love is symbolically like a person who is kind.

or

2. Love is actually a person who is kind.

But I think you had a third option, which I don't fully understand, and which deserves further consideration. Please continue.

 

[Spockrates]

for me, forgiveness is the releasing of malice and retribution .

an eye for an eye is fair, but sometimes fair is not enough for what we call love.

Agape of g-d, the message of Jesus.

we see this in early LAW, as a grain sacrifice could be made as where before it was not accepted.

forgiveness is a deal breaker. if you agree to pay me but then cannot, I can forgive the debt.hence breaking the deal legally.....

forgiveness is how love and empathy deals with LAW.

Hi Joseph. Please explain what you mean by the word releasing. Do you mean ceasing to desire malice and retribution? Or do you mean ceasing to take some malicious or retributive action?

 

[JosephR]

Hi Joseph. Please explain what you mean by the word releasing. Do you mean ceasing to desire malice and retribution? Or do you mean ceasing to take some malicious or retributive action?

you cannot cease anything, what you can do it stop it with force.

 

[JosephR]

Hi Joseph. Please explain what you mean by the word releasing. Do you mean ceasing to desire malice and retribution? Or do you mean ceasing to take some malicious or retributive action?

and Hi, nice to meet you

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

If there is only one answer you seek, how will you recognise that answer if you don't know what it is you are looking for, does that make sense?

I apologize, but I do know. I mean, I know what I'm looking for (the truth about what forgiveness is) I just haven't found it, yet. Though my conversation with PureX has taught me things I didn't know before. So I'm hopeful I'm getting closer to finding the truth. Does that make sense?

I believe forgiveness is not letting anything stand in the way of loving ALL your neighbours as you love yourself.



If they have caused an injustice against you and you are angry, or hate someone, how can you love them as yourself?

Yes, thank you. I apprehend what you are saying. Not sure I comprehend, yet. Please explain what you mean by the phrase, "loving all your neighbors". Are you speaking of merely a feeling, or is loving more than a feeling?

 

[Spockrates]

and Hi, nice to meet you

Good to meet you, too! Where are you from? I'm currently living in Indiana.

 

[JosephR]

Good to meet you, too! Where are you from? I'm currently living in Indiana.

born and raised in Oklahoma. a rebel son of a Yankee woman from Wisconsin

 

[Spockrates]

born and raised in Oklahoma. a rebel son of a Yankee woman from Wisconsin

Two states I'd like to visit someday. Would be good to say I tasked some great cheese in Wisconsin and sang the theme song from Oklahoma in Oklahoma!