What is faith?

[Hedshaker]

This is why faith without skepticism leads to blind pretense. And makes us arrogant, ignorant, and vulnerable to the manipulation of liars.

Wow, here here!

Clearly faith is belief without evidence. With evidence there is no need of faith. Without (unambiguous) evidence scepticism is justified, like it or not,

 

[Hawkins]

Wow, here here!

Clearly faith is belief without evidence. With evidence there is no need of faith. Without (unambiguous) evidence scepticism is justified, like it or not,

Humans seldom rely on evidence to get to a truth, even in terms of science. That's why 99% humans are confident that the existence of black holes is a truth. However, 99% humans don't have the evidence that they exist.

In terms of history and what are happening in this world, we almost rely on faith exclusively to get to any truth (as broadcast to us by the news agencies, or written down by the historians).


Face it, or to live in your fantasy world of 'evidence'.

 

[iouae]

I mean if Jesus wouldn't (and couldn't) do anything but what the Father did and showed Him, how ridiculous (even blasphemous) is it for us to think we have to have our own personal faith - working it up and/or maintaining it on our own?

Faith means NOTHING trustworthy apart from the operation of God.

You have hit on a vital point here that I missed completely.

Every one of the examples of faith in Heb 11 were DOING GOD'S WILL. I will check. Thus they had to be God inspired. And if God inspired, God empowered.

I see why Elijah cracked. Praying to end drought and kill prophets of Baal with fire from heaven he KNEW was God's will.

But when threatened by Jezebel - he was caught not knowing God's will. He did not check with God (who would have told him to laugh off Jezebel) but went on his own steam - thus without power or faith, running for his life.

Every one of the men of faith had faith that God was SOLIDLY behind them because they KNEW they were doing the will of God. I am sure God empowered that knowing first, then the doing.

By contrast trusting God for a Ferrari just aint gonna happen because it isn't God's will, no matter how much faith one tries to muster.

 

[PureX]

Clearly faith is belief without evidence. With evidence there is no need of faith. Without (unambiguous) evidence scepticism is justified, like it or not,

I do not agree that faith is belief without evidence. But we do use faith to fill in where the evidence leaves off. And we do use faith to determine what "evidence" is, and which evidence applies to which circumstance, etc.,.

So I do agree that "without unambiguous evidence (does that really exist?) skepticism is justified".

 

[Hedshaker]

Humans seldom rely on evidence to get to a truth, even in terms of science. That's why 99% humans are confident that the existence of black holes is a truth. However, 99% humans don't have the evidence that they exist.

In terms of history and what are happening in this world, we almost rely on faith exclusively to get to any truth (as broadcast to us by the news agencies, or written down by the historians).


Face it, or to live in your fantasy world of 'evidence'.

It's pretty clear who lives in a fantasy world.

 

[daqq]

If anyone can explain that parable of having faith the size of a seed one can throw mountains into the sea - I would love to hear it. To me it should read, if you have faith of a mountain you MIGHT get a seed to levitate.

That genos of "mountain" does not come out but with prayer and the Testimony of Yeshua. I remember the day when I looked into the mirror at the mountain staring back at me, and said, Get behind me Satan; you are an offence to me, for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of the old man carnal nature anthropos: remove yourself from here, be cast into the sea! And it came to pass in one of the appointed times, (which I knew not before it came) that as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the molten sea.

 

[False Prophet]

But the art of the lawyer, of the popular orator, and the art of conversation may be called in one word the art of persuasion.
Theaet. True.
Str. And of persuasion, there may be said to be two kinds?
Str. One is private, and the other public.
Theaet. Yes; each of them forms a class.
You seem never to have observed the manner in which lovers hunt.
But that sort of hireling whose conversation is pleasing and who baits his hook only with pleasure and exacts nothing but his maintenance in return, we should all, if I am not mistaken, describe as possessing flattery or an art of making things pleasant.
It is obvious enough; for I believe that we have discovered the Sophist: which is, as I conceive, the proper name for the class described.

 

[iouae]

But the art of the lawyer, of the popular orator, and the art of conversation may be called in one word the art of persuasion.
Theaet. True.
Str. And of persuasion, there may be said to be two kinds?
Str. One is private, and the other public.
Theaet. Yes; each of them forms a class.
You seem never to have observed the manner in which lovers hunt.
But that sort of hireling whose conversation is pleasing and who baits his hook only with pleasure and exacts nothing but his maintenance in return, we should all, if I am not mistaken, describe as possessing flattery or an art of making things pleasant.
It is obvious enough; for I believe that we have discovered the Sophist: which is, as I conceive, the proper name for the class described.

This sounds so much like Socrates. I love this style of reasoning. Or Shakespeare? What does this barbarian know?

 

[iouae]

That genos of "mountain" does not come out but with prayer and the Testimony of Yeshua. I remember the day when I looked into the mirror at the mountain staring back at me, and said, Get behind me Satan; you are an offence to me, for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of the old man carnal nature anthropos: remove yourself from here, be cast into the sea! And it came to pass in one of the appointed times, (which I knew not before it came) that as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the molten sea.

I know exactly what you are saying.

One lives with some bad habit, and the day comes when God fills you to do something about it - and you do - and its easy, because you are enabled.

 

[Truster]

I wish someone would address this aspect of faith more.

How much of faith is "psyched up" meaning one works it up, or refuses to think negative thoughts or whatever? Or how much is worked up in you by a good sermon, only to wane the next day?

Prior to anything being created it was necessary to put something in place. Nothing would have been revealed or created without this being in place. There was need of an alphabet so that words could be constructed and the initial command given...Let There Be Light.

The language given was Hebrew and this was the first and only language until Babel. When we read the scriptures we need to understand what was said and what the first hearer's of the words understood by them.

James Strong said, ''all translators are traitors'' and he being a translator himself knew this and was brave enough to admit it.

Where words cannot be translated because there is no comparative word in the target language then they should have transliterated instead of making up new words to fit their dogmas.

Most people use scriptural words without any comprehension of what they mean. All that happens is that people then use the words and walk in darkness.

 

[nikolai_42]

You have hit on a vital point here that I missed completely.

Every one of the examples of faith in Heb 11 were DOING GOD'S WILL. I will check. Thus they had to be God inspired. And if God inspired, God empowered.

I see why Elijah cracked. Praying to end drought and kill prophets of Baal with fire from heaven he KNEW was God's will.

But when threatened by Jezebel - he was caught not knowing God's will. He did not check with God (who would have told him to laugh off Jezebel) but went on his own steam - thus without power or faith, running for his life.

Every one of the men of faith had faith that God was SOLIDLY behind them because they KNEW they were doing the will of God. I am sure God empowered that knowing first, then the doing.

By contrast trusting God for a Ferrari just aint gonna happen because it isn't God's will, no matter how much faith one tries to muster.

That's a good summary - and I hadn't even thought about Elijah.

The difficulty with explaining this is that it too easily becomes something that you can find all over the place - "...if you don't do God's will, you're going to suffer!". Well...yes...that's true. But so is it true that there are things we just shouldn't do for morality's sake - but moralizing is NOT the same thing as preaching or delivering the word of the Lord. That's just more law. It's also true that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved - but there's a whole lot wrapped up in that calling. It's not the mere vocalization that is being addressed, but the real expression of falling on Christ and being broken. That doesn't happen unless the Lord first awakens the dead sinner and makes him to see and gives him the faith to call upon Him. It's the difference between a parroted sinner's prayer and a genuine cry that the Lord hears. The foundation must be Christ alone and we can't go forward trusting in our own works or our own ability to have faith (or our recognition that we have faith). It must be in Him alone. Only then can we work acceptably...

But I think I'm probably being too repetitious here...

 

[daqq]

I know exactly what you are saying.

One lives with some bad habit, and the day comes when God fills you to do something about it - and you do - and its easy, because you are enabled.

Actually that is exactly what the passage speaks about:

Matthew 17:18-21
18. And Yeshua censured him; and the demon departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples unto Yeshua apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Yeshua said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say unto this mountain, Remove from here to there; and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21. Howbeit this genos-kind does not go out but by prayer [and fasting].

And if one might say that Matthew 17:21 is a later addition-insertion, (which it may be) still yet the companion account from Mark, which is the same event happening immediately after the Transfiguration, includes enough of the same saying from Matthew 17:21 quoted above:

Mark 9:28-29 KJV
28. And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29. And he said unto them, This genos-kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer [and fasting].

And again, shortly after this occasion, we find the same statement in Matthew 21 but this time it concerns the fig tree bearing no fruit which is therefore the same analogy and allegory with the seven evil mountains, seven heads, seven kings:

Matthew 21:18-22
18. Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever! And presently the fig tree withered away.
20. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21. Yeshua answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If you have faith, and doubt not, you shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if you shall say unto this mountain, Be you removed, and be cast into the sea! it shall be done.
22. And all things, whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive.

Now therefore learn the parable of the fig tree . . .

Revelation 8:8
8. And the second angel trumpeted, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood:

 

[God's Truth]

We usually speak of faith as a belief e.g. Christian faith.

But looking at Heb 11:1 it says...

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In mathematical terms faith = substance = evidence

It does not say faith is what you hope for or something unseen.
The word "faith" itself is an abstract noun like "freedom, love, power, and redemption" meaning something theoretical and abstract.

To this add James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And one gets faith = substance = evidence = works.

Look at every example of faith in Heb 11 and it is always accompanied by an action, or a work. Even God's faith in verse 3 has a work (creating the earth).

So we can hope for something and believe in something, but if it has no substance, no evidence, no work, no action - then is it true Biblical faith?

Paul seems at times to criticise works based faith.
But he holds up Abraham as our father in the faith.
Yet, Abraham's believed God, and showed it by works.

Probably James is the most insistent that faith without works is dead.
So insistent is he that he says it 7 times in one Chapter viz. James Chapter 2.

My question then is this. Can faith be a belief system only? Does it have to be accompanied by action or substance or evidence?

The works that no longer save are the ceremonial works. Those are the works the Jews used to have to do to make themselves clean.

Now faith that Jesus' blood makes us clean is what makes us clean.

That does NOT mean we no longer have to obey God. It means we no longer have to get circumcised, and give animal sacrifices.

 

[Ben Masada]

What is faith?

Faith is to believe in some thing you do not know what. That's the same as to believe in the dark. The opposite is to believe by sight aka with understanding. That's why Paul said that his followers are supposed to believe by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) Probably, he did not like wise guys around him.

 

[God's Truth]

Faith is to believe in some thing you do not know what. That's the same as to believe in the dark. The opposite is to believe by sight aka with understanding. That's why Paul said that his followers are supposed to believe by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) Probably, he did not like wise guys around him.

Paul does not say that!

 

[Ben Masada]

Paul does not say that!

Read the quote I gave you. (II Cor. 5:7)

 

[God's Truth]

Read the quote I gave you. (II Cor. 5:7)

Paul is explaining that we have to have faith.

 

[Bright Raven]

Faith is complete confidence or trust in a person or thing; or a belief not based on proof. It may also refer to a particular system of religious belief. (Wikipedia)

Romans 10:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Nick M]

The NT speaks of the "faith of Christ".
Would I be right in saying that Christ gives us His faith through the Holy Spirit putting thoughts in our heads. And that faith OF Christ also enables our faith IN Christ?

Faith is also your commitment to your duties. The Lord Jesus Christ went to the cross to reconcile the world because of sin. We are saved by the faith of Christ.

 

[intojoy]

We usually speak of faith as a belief e.g. Christian faith.

But looking at Heb 11:1 it says...

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In mathematical terms faith = substance = evidence

It does not say faith is what you hope for or something unseen.
The word "faith" itself is an abstract noun like "freedom, love, power, and redemption" meaning something theoretical and abstract.

To this add James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And one gets faith = substance = evidence = works.

Look at every example of faith in Heb 11 and it is always accompanied by an action, or a work. Even God's faith in verse 3 has a work (creating the earth).

So we can hope for something and believe in something, but if it has no substance, no evidence, no work, no action - then is it true Biblical faith?

Paul seems at times to criticise works based faith.
But he holds up Abraham as our father in the faith.
Yet, Abraham's believed God, and showed it by works.

Probably James is the most insistent that faith without works is dead.
So insistent is he that he says it 7 times in one Chapter viz. James Chapter 2.

My question then is this. Can faith be a belief system only? Does it have to be accompanied by action or substance or evidence?

Elder pipe says:
Abraham was declared righteous 15 years prior to him being circumcised.
Oops wrong thread...faith=trust