We need help to learn and understand Torah

[Jacob]

In the very next breath, Jesus began to point out the deficiencies of the Mosaic Law. The context shows what Jesus was referring to, the commandments He was teaching was not Torah.

I believe that you are incorrect. He was talking about the Law and the Prophets, and then the Law.

Do you know about the following scripture?

Matthew 23:1-3 NASB - 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

That Standard is not Torah, but Jesus.

What is the word standard in this verse referring to?

It may not be a standard like a standard of law. Of course a standard of law does exist, even God's Law, the Law of Moses, or Jesus and / or everything that Jesus taught. Does the word law in the Bible speak of more than the Law of Moses and the law of Christ for example? I understand that there are two verses in the Bible that say "law of Christ". Of one of these in another translation I have seen "law toward Christ". In general, studying scripture and considering all that is there as one seeks to understand what it means that as Christians that we are not under the law, is important. We should obey God, and in faith. But is it true that Christians are not under the condemnation of the Law? What does it mean to be not under the Law? Does it mean that we are not to obey the Law? What are your thoughts on the matter?

The word Torah or Law means instruction. The word Torah means instruction. The first five books of the Bible are called the Law. They are called the Torah. There was a time in my life where I came to understand that the word Law for the first five books is the word Torah, or just using the word Torah. What do I mean by the Law of Moses, or Law, then? What is the Law of Moses? Is it the first five books or something else? What is the Mosaic Law? Or, what is the Ten Commandments? What is it called? Why do we speak of things the way we do? What about the words, reference, or term, the Five Books of Moses? When we think of instruction we don't necessarily think of Law. But we can also see this from the perspective of talking about God's commands.

Romans 15:4 NASB - 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

There is more than commands in the instruction here. But this has to do with how we live our lives, and we should do so as God has instructed, in obedience to His word, His words, His commands.

Heb 3
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, >>>>>>>>>> for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 but Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

God will continue to reveal His truth to you from scripture, whether or not you are currently seeing it rightly. I do accept all of scripture, even all of the Bible.

There is the TaNaKh, or the Old Testament, and the New Testament. I don't know what the term, the Apostle's Writings, refers to.

Hebrews is important. Both Moses and Jesus are spoken of here. I will continue to learn.

 

[Jacob]

Paul is saying that all he learned from a child onward -his Jewish, his knowledge of "Torah", his study under Gamaliel is dung to him in order to attain to the resurrection of Christ.

Phil 3
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

There is nothing wrong with Torah or God's Law.

Even so, see verse 9 here.

Philippians 3:8-9 NASB - 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

 

[Jacob]

Galatians 3 is about faith not about the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was a curse. We walk in the Spirit. Look at Gal 4 where Paul compares the Law of Moses Covenant to Hagar which is bondage. The New Jerusalem which is Jesus is the new covenant and freedom. Then in chapt 5, Paul lists those things that are unacceptable to God and will keep people out of the kingdom of Heaven. Please note, that list is not the Law of Moses. Then Paul shows what God expects - living the gifts of the Spirit which is walking in the Spirit. That is not even in the same ball park as the Law of Moses. You are grasping at what you can do, when it's about what Jesus has done for us.

You need to read and understand the truth of Galatians 3. I don't know why you are saying what you are saying here. Are you speaking against Galatians 3, against my post, against what I have said in my post, against anything I have said in this thread that I started with an Opening Post (OP), or about or against anything I have said in the past?

 

[Jacob]

Please read Matthew 5:19 NASB.

Matthew 5:19 NASB - 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Philippians 3:16 NASB - 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

The word standard here does not necessarily refer to law keeping. It is important to obey God's commands. Does it refer to obedience in any way? Law keeping can be seen as a good thing, because keeping (or observing) the law is good.

What is this talking about? Is it talking about living by faith? Is there such a things a spiritual growth? I am uncertain. Paul is not speaking against Jesus here, or anywhere. Do you accept what Jesus said here in Matthew 5:19 NASB?

 

[TweetyBird]

I believe that you are incorrect. He was talking about the Law and the Prophets, and then the Law.

He taught in Matt 5:21 to the end of the chapter how not to obey Torah.

Do you know about the following scripture?

Matthew 23:1-3 NASB - 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
What is the word standard in this verse referring to?

When they read the Law of Moses, it as acceptable and the people were to do that [until His death]. Then he spent the rest of Matt 23 in scathing condemnation of everything the Pharisees taught and did.

It may not be a standard like a standard of law. Of course a standard of law does exist, even God's Law, the Law of Moses, or Jesus and / or everything that Jesus taught. Does the word law in the Bible speak of more than the Law of Moses and the law of Christ for example? I understand that there are two verses in the Bible that say "law of Christ". Of one of these in another translation I have seen "law toward Christ". In general, studying scripture and considering all that is there as one seeks to understand what it means that as Christians that we are not under the law, is important. We should obey God, and in faith. But is it true that Christians are not under the condemnation of the Law? What does it mean to be not under the Law? Does it mean that we are not to obey the Law? What are your thoughts on the matter?

We do not need the Mosaic Law. It is not required of us in Christ. We have the Holy Spirit guiding us. Our plumb line is love - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - love one another - be willing to lay down your life - forgiveness 70 x70 - compassion - mercy - lovingkindness - faith - hope - the fruit of the Spirit in all goodness and righteousness - this is the Law of Christ. It is not the Mosaic Law.

The Mosaic Law is incomplete. It cannot guide one to the truth. It causes people to sin, gives them the desire to sin. This is why Israel would never keep it with any success. She rebelled over and over again, until God broke that covenant. The one He gave, according to Jer 31, is NOT LIKE the one He gave them at Mt Sinai. It is a NEW COVENANT - brand new, fresh, never heard before.

You are depending upon yourself to be righteous before God. The Law of Moses cannot give you righteousness or a desire to serve Jesus Christ or believe in Him. It as a carnal commandment that brought death. Why would you want to put yourself under that?

 

[Jacob]

He taught in Matt 5:21 to the end of the chapter how not to obey Torah.



When they read the Law of Moses, it as acceptable and the people were to do that [until His death]. Then he spent the rest of Matt 23 in scathing condemnation of everything the Pharisees taught and did.



We do not need the Mosaic Law. It is not required of us in Christ. We have the Holy Spirit guiding us. Our plumb line is love - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - love one another - be willing to lay down your life - forgiveness 70 x70 - compassion - mercy - lovingkindness - faith - hope - the fruit of the Spirit in all goodness and righteousness - this is the Law of Christ. It is not the Mosaic Law.

The Mosaic Law is incomplete. It cannot guide one to the truth. It causes people to sin, gives them the desire to sin. This is why Israel would never keep it with any success. She rebelled over and over again, until God broke that covenant. The one He gave, according to Jer 31, is NOT LIKE the one He gave them at Mt Sinai. It is a NEW COVENANT - brand new, fresh, never heard before.

You are depending upon yourself to be righteous before God. The Law of Moses cannot give you righteousness or a desire to serve Jesus Christ or believe in Him. It as a carnal commandment that brought death. Why would you want to put yourself under that?

No. You are incorrect.

And, why do you say here that God broke the covenant?

Jeremiah 31:32 NASB - 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

 

[TweetyBird]

No. You are incorrect.

And, why do you say here that God broke the covenant?

Jeremiah 31:32 NASB - 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

Because God said that He broke the covenant with Israel. Do you think He lied?

Zech 11
7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. 8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.

 

[Jacob]

Because God said that He broke the covenant with Israel. Do you think He lied?

Zech 11
7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. 8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.

No. I don't know what covenant this is speaking of.

 

[TweetyBird]

No. I don't know what covenant this is speaking of.

The covenant with Israel. It was His flock. His people. There is only one covenant with Israel, the old covenant, the Mosaic Law Covenant.

 

[Jacob]

The covenant with Israel. It was His flock. His people. There is only one covenant with Israel, the old covenant, the Mosaic Law Covenant.

I don't understand what the scripture is referring to.

 

[TweetyBird]

I don't understand what the scripture is referring to.

What don't you get? It says Israel.

Zech 11
7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. 8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord. 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord. 14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

 

[Jacob]

What don't you get?

I don't know.

It says Israel.

Zech 11
7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. 8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord. 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord. 14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.