WARNING! Apostasy about to happen.

genuineoriginal

New member
I don't follow organizations' reasoning.

Babylon is clear to me. Jesus says to "come out of her". We should not be in the organization.
There are many beliefs that some people think are clear that are not what the Bible teaches.
The idea that Babylon is an organization and the Trinity doctrine are two such beliefs.

You, me, and everyone else should be open to having our beliefs challenged and refuted when they do not match what the Bible clearly teaches.

You want Babylon to be an organization because you can then apply the "come out of her" to people in an organization.
That is not what the Bible clearly teaches about Babylon.
The Bible clearly teaches that Babylon is a large city that will be destroyed.

Revelation 18:16-19
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.​

 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
I just gave you my perspective. That's the main reason why I am not with any organization.

You cannot see chaotic Christian communities and doctrines?

It is clear to me.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I just gave you my perspective. That's the main reason why I am not with any organization.
Rejection of what is clearly stated in the Bible for your own perspective of what is being said is not a good reason to do anything.
You cannot see chaotic Christian communities and doctrines?

It is clear to me.
Seeing how chaotic Christian communities and doctrines are is a valid reason for refusing to take part in them.
That is called discernment.

Thinking that the Bible is telling you to get out of the organizations because that is how you want to interpret the verses about Babylon is called imagining a vain thing.

Psalm 2:1
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?​

 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Rejection of what is clearly stated in the Bible for your own perspective of what is being said is not a good reason to do anything.

Seeing how chaotic Christian communities and doctrines are is a valid reason for refusing to take part in them.
That is called discernment.

Thinking that the Bible is telling you to get out of the organizations because that is how you want to interpret the verses about Babylon is called imagining a vain thing.

Psalm 2:1
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?​


Ok, you are entitle to your opinion to follower organizations' information.

blessings.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Rev 17
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Rev 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the GREAT CITY—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
Two different cities.

Jerusalem.
Jerusalem cannot be Babylon, because Jerusalem is the great city of Israel and Babylon is the great city of the exile from Israel.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You said; "when the symbols used in prophecy are provided with a definite meaning, then not using that meaning is changing scripture to mean whatever you want it to mean instead of what the prophecy was intended to mean."

But in this case you forgo this conviction?
I am not changing meanings of the symbols.
The phrase "great city" is a literal description of a city with a large population, not a symbol that means something else.
Jerusalem, a great city, is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, but is never called Babylon.

Only a tenth part of Jerusalem falls by earthquake (Revelation 11:13), but mystery Babylon is utterly destroyed by fire (Revelation 18:8).
They are two different great cities.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Thank for trying to read it all. Well done.

However, I again will point out that your position is vague waffle. Basically you're saying;

'We can't know any thing specific about the identity of the AC/FP etc but we will know when it happens because of signs.. And to try and point out any specifics is wrong because God doesn't work that way (trust me)'.

Well...no. I'm saying that we both agree on the general premise that deception is going to be the cause of the great apostasy and the deluding of many to engage in utterly false worship of one who claims to be God. But where we part company is the nature of the proof. I say that the only reliable indicators themselves will be spiritual in nature. Not that they will be hidden or ethereal and mystical - but rather that they will be of a moral and spiritual quality such that "only the wise will understand" while "the wicked will do wickedly" (and not understand). In other words, the only infallible basis for identifying any prophetic character (ahead of time) is discernment. As can be seen by the profusion of theories based on physical characteristics, there is no sound way to test the soundness of an end-times scenario - at least not until after the prophecy is fulfilled. By then, it will often be too late.

Consider Jesus. The Jews (even the disciples!) looked for someone who would overthrow Rome - a deliverer from their political bondage. So they had a profusion of zealots who were looking to usher in the kingdom of God by violence. They were going to bring about what they expected. And the religious leaders rejected Jesus - in part - because He came from Galilee (they used scripture to prove it -- John 7:52). They rejected Him because He was supposedly of tainted lineage (born of fornication -- John 8:41). Meanwhile, they had someone who was performing miracles, prophesying infallibly and speaking with such great authority that even those who would apprehend Him had to admit His undeniable presence (John 7:46). Maybe ironically, this was in the midst of a debate over whether Christ would hail from Galilee or not (thus John 7:52).

And even with discernment, there is no guarantee the truth of the matter will be known well ahead of time - just in enough time to allow those who believe the truth to obey it and for those who don't to reject it to their judgment. The overthrow of Jerusalem in 70AD shows us that. When the believers in Christ saw Jerusalem surrounded with armies (which then, inexplicably, retreated) they fled to the hills and were spared the fate of those that did not heed Jesus' warning. You may say that this violates my premise of not looking to externals, but I will add that I don't deny that those externals are true and that those who trust the Lord's Word will benefit thereby. But in identifying personalities (whether they be individuals, nations or other entities), there is a difference between that and heeding a warning to flee in given conditions. But again, the conditions Jesus talks about in Luke 21:20-21 are clearly stated. And when you read the parallel passages in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15, it is evident that the "wise" readers understood what was meant by the abomination of desolation. The only way to have interpreted that was to have had a way of identifying the marks of whatever this abomination was to be. And whether the believers knew ahead of time who it was (or not) I don't know. But they certainly had plenty of time once it was clear what was happening. But to those that did not obey, they rejected Christ. So their judgment goes back to their rejection of the person of Jesus Christ.

Yet you cite virtually no scripture to support this view but the ones you do show you are misinterpreting. E.g: Matthew 16:2-4

Which is simply about Jesus stating that the only sign (proof) of his divinity would be His resurrection. Nothing to do with the end days. Although that said it can also point to Jesus returning on the third prophetic day, i.e. the third millennium from his death and resurrection. i.e. the year 2029. Which is the year of his return.

What I find interesting here is that you want to impose a very strict reading on the passage when I find in it a principle, but when you want to apply it (potentially) to Christ's return. He clearly points to His death (sign of the prophet Jonah) so the warrant for expanding that is suspect. But what I am saying is that Jesus makes a point that doesn't just apply to this one scenario. He makes the general statement that a wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. That is not simply applying to the people of Jesus' day (though his appearance certainly made that demand for the miraculous more likely), but establishing that an adulterous generation follows after something or someone only for what they can get and then deserts it (or him) only when they find they aren't getting what they want. Jesus made that point (less bluntly) to the multitude in John 6 after He fed the 5,000.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:26

They wanted to make Him king (John 6:15) because He did miracles. And when Jesus confronted them about it in verse 26, they then revealed the truth of what was in their hearts :

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:26-35

First they were wanting to do great works for God. Then they demanded a sign so that they might believe Christ's work. They used Moses to justify their request - but Jesus told them they were (at best) missing the point. What they were seeking was there with them - in front of them - and they were looking for something else entirely (showing that they were more interested in satisfying their own ideas and lusts than they were in following Jesus).

And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
John 6:42

So they rejected Him because He didn't fit their natural understanding of what the Lord was after. Had they simply recognized their spiritual poverty, they would have realized what He was saying. All the external signs in the world weren't going to get them to believe - only poverty of spirit. That, in the end, was possessed only by the disciples who, evidenced by Peter's resignation to follow Christ, followed Him in spite of everyone else and because they knew who and what it was they were dealing with :

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 6:66-69

They knew there was no other answer for them. They still, however, didn't have much of a clue what they were in for. But they knew who they were following.

That is all to say that at the heart of acceptance or rejection of Jesus was NOT the compliance with external signs, but a recognition both of who HE was (and is) and who WE are in light of Him. If the only import were the question surrounding resurrection of the dead, then at the least the Pharisees would have accepted Him on that point - while the Saducees would have rejected Him. But both rejected Him. The import of prophecy is not just to tell what is coming in the future, but to understand the nature of the times in which they come.

You can't seem to see that you are actually turning people away from looking into prophesy which is the opposite of what we should do. You should be saying. 'Well I'm going to keep studying prophesy till I get some definitive answers from it'. That's what I did and it works. My long post is all the study and scriptures that support my position.

If you mean I am turning people away from looking at prophesy as a puzzle to be assembled and figured out a la Graham Hancock, the Da Vinci Code and assorted spy flicks and books, then I would say that is a good thing. The foundation of understanding prophecy is not a right understanding of history and politics. It is an appreciation for the context of what God is doing in the earth and what issues are critical in any matter of eschatological interest.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
No. For instance Daniel was a date setter and the WISEMEN worked out from him and the OT how, where and when to find the Messiah. You would have been there telling them not to bother and that God doesn't tell us anything like that. You need to make sure you get the Holy Spirit because at the moment it doesn't sound like it all.

No. You need to distinguish between those who have been given direct revelation of these things and those who by study and prayer seek to understand what has been revealed. Daniel also told the king his dream and interpreted it. Daniel was given the visions and (in some cases) some direct interpretation. That is not the same as studying one’s bible. If you are claiming revelation of these things by direct explanation of the Holy Spirit then that is different than study. Daniel’ study was basically realizing that Judah’s captivity was coming to an end and in his diligence to search that out and intercede for his people the Lord granted him revelation of Christ. On the other hand, Simeon was led of the Holy Spirit but didn’t know the identity of Christ until he saw Him. I don’t know for certain how the Magi came to their conclusions about the star.

Dates are fine...but without direct instruction in time they are defined more by circumstances than chronology.


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