The OT is the shadow, the NT is the substance
Useful In A Pinch
- Thread starter WeberHome
- Start date
The OT is the shadow, the NT is the substance
And this shows that God's salvation is not just for the soul but is adapted to our natural needs. Our religion is a fellowship religion, just as the fellowship gathered to feast on the sacrifice...so they must have gathered around the fire made from the wood of the ark.
iouae
Well-known member
To blaspheme God is to say bad things about Him.
The bad things folks say about God as a result of David's sin is this...
"You can murder and commit adultery and get away with it because God is a God of grace".
People use David's example to this day. The last sermon I heard yesterday used this very example. His theme was we are saved by grace plus NOTHING. We are saved by Jesus and NOTHING. And the sins such as David did were used to "prove" this. I personally am infuriated at this theology. It has an element of truth, but implies that as believers, we can be like David and sin and stay saved.
Folks do not realise how close David came to being rejected by God if he had not repented (see Ps 51).
2 Sam 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
The implication is that God was on the point of killing David if he had not repented.
Sorry Weberhome, I don't agree Davids sin causes the world to question the wisdom of Yhvh's choice of a people for His name.
Nobody "gets away with" anything. Everyone pays on earth one way or another. Nobody ever murders and commits adultery and lives happily ever after.
exminister
Well-known member
These are stories of infanticide and abortion (pregnant women at the flood).
Are the young ones or unborn destined to hell due to God's punishment of their parents or grandparents or great grandparents?
exminister
Well-known member
I find this a far more satisfying explanation. God is not so petty to worry about human opinion like some movie star.
Reading the OT certainly would make me question Gods choice of people. They were 5 minutes out of the gate stubborn and wayward. But that is not because they were Jewish, it was because they were human.
WeberHome
New member
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Though progeny may be subjected to collateral damage because of their
parents sins; they are not incriminated by them.
†. Ezek 18:20 . .The son will not bear the punishment for the father's
iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the
righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of
the wicked will be upon himself.
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Though progeny may be subjected to collateral damage because of their
parents sins; they are not incriminated by them.
†. Ezek 18:20 . .The son will not bear the punishment for the father's
iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the
righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of
the wicked will be upon himself.
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exminister
Well-known member
So since they had not come of age and were killed as an infant or fetus they will be in heaven, right?
WeberHome
New member
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Christ's version of Christianity is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some
supernatural way that I don't quite understand; put Christ's believing
followers to death. Their entire existence, as natural-born human beings,
went up on the cross with him.
†. Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him
†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ
†. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died
Seeing as how Christ's believing followers-- which includes David and
everyone else who believed in Christ back in the Old Testament --have already
adequately satisfied justice for every sin that they will ever commit from
birth to the grave; then no matter what they do from here on in; they'll
never again be in the slightest danger of the lake of flaming sulfur depicted
at Rev 20:10-15.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Christ offers a version of Christianity that guarantees a Ten Commandments
proof, God proof, sin proof, Devil proof, temptation proof, fool proof, human
nature proof, human error proof, fail-safe rescue from the wrath of God. It
just amazes me the number of people, even those warming pews in old
school Christian churches, who want nothing to do with it.
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Christ's version of Christianity is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some
supernatural way that I don't quite understand; put Christ's believing
followers to death. Their entire existence, as natural-born human beings,
went up on the cross with him.
†. Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him
†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ
†. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died
Seeing as how Christ's believing followers-- which includes David and
everyone else who believed in Christ back in the Old Testament --have already
adequately satisfied justice for every sin that they will ever commit from
birth to the grave; then no matter what they do from here on in; they'll
never again be in the slightest danger of the lake of flaming sulfur depicted
at Rev 20:10-15.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Christ offers a version of Christianity that guarantees a Ten Commandments
proof, God proof, sin proof, Devil proof, temptation proof, fool proof, human
nature proof, human error proof, fail-safe rescue from the wrath of God. It
just amazes me the number of people, even those warming pews in old
school Christian churches, who want nothing to do with it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
WeberHome
New member
-
Even if children were to remain underage and/or a fetus, they would still fail
to qualify for the kingdom of God.
†. John 3:3 . .Truly, truly, I say to you: unless one is born again, he cannot
see the kingdom of God.
This birth about which Christ spoke isn't optional; no, its a must.
†. John 3:5-7 . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you: You must be
born again.
Natural-born infants and fetuses are born of the flesh. Therefore;
somewhere, at some time, they have to undergo a birth by the Spirit in
order to qualify for the kingdom of God.
Something else people forget. Little children do not remain little children
forever. No, they grow up and become adults: sometimes very disagreeable
adults. Well; seeing as how the kingdom of God is depicted as a place of
peace, then disagreeable adults cannot be allowed-- it not only wouldn't be
right, but it wouldn't be fair to the nice people in the kingdom of God.
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Even if children were to remain underage and/or a fetus, they would still fail
to qualify for the kingdom of God.
†. John 3:3 . .Truly, truly, I say to you: unless one is born again, he cannot
see the kingdom of God.
This birth about which Christ spoke isn't optional; no, its a must.
†. John 3:5-7 . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you: You must be
born again.
Natural-born infants and fetuses are born of the flesh. Therefore;
somewhere, at some time, they have to undergo a birth by the Spirit in
order to qualify for the kingdom of God.
Something else people forget. Little children do not remain little children
forever. No, they grow up and become adults: sometimes very disagreeable
adults. Well; seeing as how the kingdom of God is depicted as a place of
peace, then disagreeable adults cannot be allowed-- it not only wouldn't be
right, but it wouldn't be fair to the nice people in the kingdom of God.
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iouae
Well-known member
The Bible always means LISTENING TO DO.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Matthew 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Maybe you need to look at my thread "Once saved not necessarily always saved" which is what the seed falling on the rocky ground illustrates. And this is only one of DOZENS of scriptures saying this.
iouae
Well-known member
Ignorance of the law does not make one guiltless.
And one does not have to enter a contract with God like ancient Israel did to be bound to keep the law.
Sin is the transgression of the law.
All have sinned.
The wages of sin is death. For atheists too.
Only believing in Christ, being forgiven and walking with Him till death will gain anyone eternal life.
exminister
Well-known member
You are the first Christian I have heard say ALL infants/fetuses that die (including miscarriages) before the age of accountability go to hell. I see how you support that but doesn't seem fair.
WeberHome
New member
-
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they're made quite comfortable in an afterlife
orphanage where underage children are cared for till they're old enough to
think for themselves and make intelligent decisions.
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I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they're made quite comfortable in an afterlife
orphanage where underage children are cared for till they're old enough to
think for themselves and make intelligent decisions.
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WeberHome
New member
-
The Flesh
†. Rom 8:13 . . For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by
the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
The koiné Greek word for flesh is sarx (sarx); which essentially indicates the
meaty parts of either man or beast. The meat of the human body would of
course include the 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue housed within its
bony little skull sufficing for a mind. In other words: sans the meaty part of
their body called the brain; people would not have a mind. In point of fact,
it's not all that difficult to tamper with a brain and make its owner quite
mindless.
The meaty parts of the human body are the source of a human being's
human nature and it isn't all that difficult to define. Webster's says its (1)
the ways of thinking, feeling, and acting that are common to most people,
and (2) the nature of humans; especially the fundamental dispositions and
traits of humans. In a nutshell then: the flesh, as per Rom 8:13, can be
concisely defined as that which comes natural to an organic species of life
Ironically, it has never been okay for people to live according to that which
comes natural even though when God finished manufacturing the cosmos'
various forms of life, matter, and energy; He pronounced it all not just good;
but "very" good. In other words, God was satisfied that human nature came
out just exactly as He designed it to come out. But the odd part of that is:
mankind's creator has never wanted people to make human nature their
lead to the point of excluding God having a say.
So; right from the gun, it has been God's desire that people heed their
maker rather than always and only heeding their body; and when I say
"body" I'm speaking of the senses, the impulses, and the natural
predilections and proclivities produced by the human body-- it's organs, its
chemistry, and its central nervous system.
†. Rom 7:18 . . I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing: for to will is present with me
It's very common to hear people say "I don't know what came over me"
when they do something contrary to their own better judgment. Well; the
thing that came over them was their flesh doing what comes natural.
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The Flesh
†. Rom 8:13 . . For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by
the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
The koiné Greek word for flesh is sarx (sarx); which essentially indicates the
meaty parts of either man or beast. The meat of the human body would of
course include the 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue housed within its
bony little skull sufficing for a mind. In other words: sans the meaty part of
their body called the brain; people would not have a mind. In point of fact,
it's not all that difficult to tamper with a brain and make its owner quite
mindless.
The meaty parts of the human body are the source of a human being's
human nature and it isn't all that difficult to define. Webster's says its (1)
the ways of thinking, feeling, and acting that are common to most people,
and (2) the nature of humans; especially the fundamental dispositions and
traits of humans. In a nutshell then: the flesh, as per Rom 8:13, can be
concisely defined as that which comes natural to an organic species of life
Ironically, it has never been okay for people to live according to that which
comes natural even though when God finished manufacturing the cosmos'
various forms of life, matter, and energy; He pronounced it all not just good;
but "very" good. In other words, God was satisfied that human nature came
out just exactly as He designed it to come out. But the odd part of that is:
mankind's creator has never wanted people to make human nature their
lead to the point of excluding God having a say.
So; right from the gun, it has been God's desire that people heed their
maker rather than always and only heeding their body; and when I say
"body" I'm speaking of the senses, the impulses, and the natural
predilections and proclivities produced by the human body-- it's organs, its
chemistry, and its central nervous system.
†. Rom 7:18 . . I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing: for to will is present with me
It's very common to hear people say "I don't know what came over me"
when they do something contrary to their own better judgment. Well; the
thing that came over them was their flesh doing what comes natural.
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exminister
Well-known member
Sounds like how the Catholics addressed it. Not sure what it's called Limbo or Perdition, something like that.
WeberHome
New member
-
Eternal Life
Though eternal life is impervious to death; it has little to do with longevity.
For instance when Christ says: "I assure you, those who heed my message,
and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life" he isn't saying that they
have immortality. The proof of that is all around us. Every day, around the
clock, Christ's believing followers die all the time, just like everybody else. In
point of fact, Christ had eternal life (John 5:26, 1John 1:2) yet was easily
put to death.
Q: So: if eternal life has no effect upon human longevity, then what is it?
A: There's a clue located in one of Peter's epistles.
†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to
life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His
own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious
and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become
partakers of the divine nature.
Peter could just as easily have said "partakers of eternal life" because when
speaking of life per se: eternal life and the divine nature are joined at the
hip, so to speak.
I have human nature because I have the breath of life that was given to
Adam in the book of Genesis. God has the divine nature because He has
eternal life. In other words: if people want to some day think, speak, act,
and feel the way that God thinks, speaks, acts, and feels; then they are
going to have to somehow swap out their human nature for the divine
nature. And this isn't optional, no, it's a must.
†. John 4:24 . . God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in
spirit
Can people relate to a clam spirit-to-spirit? No; they can't, because a clam's
nature is foreign to human nature. In like manner: people cannot relate to
God spirit-to-spirit either because divine nature is foreign to human nature.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Eternal Life
Though eternal life is impervious to death; it has little to do with longevity.
For instance when Christ says: "I assure you, those who heed my message,
and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life" he isn't saying that they
have immortality. The proof of that is all around us. Every day, around the
clock, Christ's believing followers die all the time, just like everybody else. In
point of fact, Christ had eternal life (John 5:26, 1John 1:2) yet was easily
put to death.
Q: So: if eternal life has no effect upon human longevity, then what is it?
A: There's a clue located in one of Peter's epistles.
†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to
life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His
own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious
and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become
partakers of the divine nature.
Peter could just as easily have said "partakers of eternal life" because when
speaking of life per se: eternal life and the divine nature are joined at the
hip, so to speak.
I have human nature because I have the breath of life that was given to
Adam in the book of Genesis. God has the divine nature because He has
eternal life. In other words: if people want to some day think, speak, act,
and feel the way that God thinks, speaks, acts, and feels; then they are
going to have to somehow swap out their human nature for the divine
nature. And this isn't optional, no, it's a must.
†. John 4:24 . . God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in
spirit
Can people relate to a clam spirit-to-spirit? No; they can't, because a clam's
nature is foreign to human nature. In like manner: people cannot relate to
God spirit-to-spirit either because divine nature is foreign to human nature.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
WeberHome
New member
-
When People Obtain Eternal Life
In the passages below, note the grammatical tense of the "have" verbs.
They're in the present tense; not future, indicating that believers have
eternal life right now-- no delay, and no waiting period.
†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life
†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins,
but they have already passed from Death into Life.
†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
The possession of eternal life is very crucial because according to God's
testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to eternal life;
Christians who currently lack it also lack God's son. In other words: they are
currently quite christless.
†. 1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal
life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and
whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.
I should think that it goes without saying that christless Christians are in
grave danger of the sum of all fears.
†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
How many christless Christians are there? Well; for starters: Roman
Catholicism-- known everywhere as the largest single denomination in the
world --currently consists of approximately 1.2 billion followers who all, to a
man, including the Pope, insist that no one obtains eternal life before they
die and cross over to the other side.
Well; that can mean but one thing, and one thing only: seeing as how those
1.2 billion souls are currently lacking eternal life, then according to God's
expert testimony they are currently quite christless. And you can safely
apply that rule to any, and all, denominations insisting that nobody obtains
eternal life before they die and cross over to the other side.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
When People Obtain Eternal Life
In the passages below, note the grammatical tense of the "have" verbs.
They're in the present tense; not future, indicating that believers have
eternal life right now-- no delay, and no waiting period.
†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life
†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins,
but they have already passed from Death into Life.
†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
The possession of eternal life is very crucial because according to God's
testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to eternal life;
Christians who currently lack it also lack God's son. In other words: they are
currently quite christless.
†. 1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal
life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and
whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.
I should think that it goes without saying that christless Christians are in
grave danger of the sum of all fears.
†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
How many christless Christians are there? Well; for starters: Roman
Catholicism-- known everywhere as the largest single denomination in the
world --currently consists of approximately 1.2 billion followers who all, to a
man, including the Pope, insist that no one obtains eternal life before they
die and cross over to the other side.
Well; that can mean but one thing, and one thing only: seeing as how those
1.2 billion souls are currently lacking eternal life, then according to God's
expert testimony they are currently quite christless. And you can safely
apply that rule to any, and all, denominations insisting that nobody obtains
eternal life before they die and cross over to the other side.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
WeberHome
New member
-
How Christ Is Related To Adam
I was taught in catechism that seeing as how Jesus Christ's mother was a
virgin when he was conceived, then he didn't have a human father. That
notion is easy to debunk.
According to the book of Genesis; God created Adam's flesh from the earth's
dust. Not so Eve.
She was constructed from a human tissue sample amputated from Adam's
side. Thus Eve's flesh wasn't the flesh of a second species of h.sapiens. Her
flesh was biologically just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's except for
gender. In other words: Eve was the flip side of the same biological coin. In
point of fact, the Bible refers to Eve as Adam just as it refers to Adam as
Adam, (Gen 5:22)
From that point on; any human flesh biologically produced from Eve's flesh--
whether virgin conceived or naturally conceived --would be biologically just
as much Adam's flesh as Adam's because the source of its mother's flesh
was Adam's flesh.
†. Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
Just about everybody agrees that the seed spoken of in that passage is
Christ. Well; seeing as how his mom's flesh was derived biologically from
Eve, then Christ's flesh is just as much Eve's flesh as Eve's, and seeing as
how her flesh was just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's, then it's readily
deduced that Adam is Christ's biological progenitor.
It's commonly objected that women cannot provide the Y chromosome
necessary for producing a male child. And that's right; they usually can't.
However, seeing as how God constructed an entire woman from a sample of
man flesh; then I do not see how it would be any more difficult for God to
construct a dinky little Y chromosome from a sample of woman flesh. And
seeing as how woman flesh is just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's, then
any Y chromosome that God might construct from woman flesh would
actually be produced from Adam's flesh seeing as how Eve's flesh was
produced from Adam's flesh.
Bottom line: In order to qualify as one of Adam's biological descendants, a
person need only be one of Eve's biological descendants: which we all are.
†. Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the
mother of all the living.
So then; unless somebody can prove-- conclusively and without ambiguity--
that Jesus Christ's mother wasn't biologically related to either Adam or Eve;
then we are forced to conclude that Adam is Jesus Christ's biological father.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
How Christ Is Related To Adam
I was taught in catechism that seeing as how Jesus Christ's mother was a
virgin when he was conceived, then he didn't have a human father. That
notion is easy to debunk.
According to the book of Genesis; God created Adam's flesh from the earth's
dust. Not so Eve.
She was constructed from a human tissue sample amputated from Adam's
side. Thus Eve's flesh wasn't the flesh of a second species of h.sapiens. Her
flesh was biologically just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's except for
gender. In other words: Eve was the flip side of the same biological coin. In
point of fact, the Bible refers to Eve as Adam just as it refers to Adam as
Adam, (Gen 5:22)
From that point on; any human flesh biologically produced from Eve's flesh--
whether virgin conceived or naturally conceived --would be biologically just
as much Adam's flesh as Adam's because the source of its mother's flesh
was Adam's flesh.
†. Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
Just about everybody agrees that the seed spoken of in that passage is
Christ. Well; seeing as how his mom's flesh was derived biologically from
Eve, then Christ's flesh is just as much Eve's flesh as Eve's, and seeing as
how her flesh was just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's, then it's readily
deduced that Adam is Christ's biological progenitor.
It's commonly objected that women cannot provide the Y chromosome
necessary for producing a male child. And that's right; they usually can't.
However, seeing as how God constructed an entire woman from a sample of
man flesh; then I do not see how it would be any more difficult for God to
construct a dinky little Y chromosome from a sample of woman flesh. And
seeing as how woman flesh is just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's, then
any Y chromosome that God might construct from woman flesh would
actually be produced from Adam's flesh seeing as how Eve's flesh was
produced from Adam's flesh.
Bottom line: In order to qualify as one of Adam's biological descendants, a
person need only be one of Eve's biological descendants: which we all are.
†. Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the
mother of all the living.
So then; unless somebody can prove-- conclusively and without ambiguity--
that Jesus Christ's mother wasn't biologically related to either Adam or Eve;
then we are forced to conclude that Adam is Jesus Christ's biological father.
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