glorydaz
Well-known member
I believe so....all those who believe. Justification and faith go hand in hand.
ECT Universalism?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I believe so....all those who believe. Justification and faith go hand in hand.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
But the following verse does not say "all men who believe" but instead just "all men":
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).
I do not believe in Universalism so this verse must be understood in another way.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you think that the gifts you mention there are the same "gift" of which Paul speaks of in the following verse?:
"And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification" (Ro.5:16).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Nobody is trying to prove Universalism, Dan.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Maybe the "all men" Paul is speaking of there are those from the preceding verse, "they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness ..."
The gift Paul speaks of here seems to be righteousness, Romans 5:17 (which clearly is accounted to those who believe). But you notice, Paul has spoken of how Christ was raised for our "justification", and MUCH MORE, we shall be saved by His life. "Justification of Life"?
Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Then this verse, stuck between the two verses you have been quoting....
Romans 5:17
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
I'm not sure what it says, exactly, but it says something.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I don't think that is correct. Please allow me to give my take on the verses here:
"And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:16-18; KJV).
When we look at the part in "bold" in this translation the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. But since all people do not receive the free gift unto justification of life how can this be explained? Let us look at the following translation of verse 18:
"so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life" (Ro.5:18; DBY).
The word "towards" is translated from the Greek word eis and in the following verse that word is translated as "intent":
"But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent (eis), that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?" (Acts 9:21).
From this we can understand that the free gift of justification unto life is intended for all people and not that all people actually receive the free gift. In the following two verse Paul speaks of the LORD's intent toward all men in regard to being justified and saved:
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet.3:9).
The grace of God that brings salvation is the gospel of grace and the LORD's intent is that all people should believe that gospel which results in the free gift unto justification of life but not all believe the gospel.
In his comments on verse 18 John Nelson Darby differentiates between the intention (scope) of the action from its actual application:
"In Verse 18 the general argument is resumed in a very abstract way. 'By one offence,' he says, 'towards all for condemnation, even so by one accomplished righteousness (or act of righteousness) towards all men, for justification of life. One offence bore in its bearing, so to speak, referred to all, and so it was with the one act of righteousness. This is the scope of the action in itself. Now for the application: for as by the disobedience of one man (only) many are constituted sinners, so by the obedience of one (only) many are constituted righteous" [emphasis added] (John Nelson Darby, Darby's Synopsis of the Bible).
Makes sense?
glorydaz
Well-known member
It certainly makes more sense than anything so far. AND, it fits with what Paul preaches elsewhere.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Came upon means came upon
Rain comes upon the just and the unjust
God's sunshine comes upon the just and the unjust
Upon and believing to receive are two different matters
The gift of salvation is not a hat someone wears upon their head, it is what I John 4:13 tells us what God gave to us. He gave to us of his spirit. It is that incorruptible seed that makes us children of God.
The gift of salvation is available to all, but not all choose to receive it
Unto means unto
It does not mean that anyone will reach out to receive what God has made available
Just because someone comes unto a door, does not mean they will knock to gain entrance.
One verse that illustrates this concept but in a different way is Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Just because Jesus is upon the doorstep and knocking does not mean the door will be opened to him
IF any man hears and opens they will be blessed by the presence of the lord Jesus Christ, but any man could also refuse to hear and open
Rev. 3:20 is about His return at that time - that is the knock on the door that is referring to.
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Acts 17: 11, 12.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So the condemnation is stronger than the salvation? In other words, if condemnation was simply towards all men in the same way that justification is towards all men - and absolutely everyone was under Adam's condemnation, then how can you then turn around and say that Christ's salvation was merely offered to all men? The condemnation wasn't offered to all - was applied universally and unilaterally. So why not the salvation? After all, Paul is certainly emphasizing the cure over the curse in verse 17:
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:17
And this was said in the wake of Paul emphasizing the fact that even those that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin were subject to death. So the curse was universal and absolute.
The universalist would certainly argue all that (and, as far as it goes, rightly so) to the end that it must mean that all are saved. But what about a parallel passage that Paul writes to the Corinthian church :
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I Corinthians 15:20-22
All that are in Adam (without exception) die. All that are in Christ (without exception) are given life. It is spelled out clearly. Are all in Christ? No (thus the many of Romans 5:19 and the qualifier "...they that are Christ's..." of I Corinthians 15:23). But those who are in Christ are saved utterly - and this salvation is rectification that exceeds the depths of the curse. But universalism is not being taught - nor (I think) is it teaching that the gift was being offered to all men (though I am not saying I don't believe in a universal offer of some sort).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but in order for a person to be "in Christ" he must do something and that is to believe. No one is automatically "in Christ" any more than anyone is "in Adam" automatically. No one is "in Adam" until he sins.
Since infants and little children have not yet sinned then that is why Paul speaks of the offense of one only "many" be dead:
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).
Here we read that because of the offence of Adam "many" died but not "all." This verse alone refutes the teaching of Original Sin because according to those who promote the idea of Original Sin "all" people die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin.
The Greek word translated "many" is used twice in the verse and the second time it is used it is impossible that the reference is to "all":
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).
It is a fact that the second time the word "many" is used it cannot possibly be referring to "all" because the gift by grace has not abounded unto "all." Only those with faith receive the gift and not all people have faith.
Since it means "less than all" in the second part of the verse then it must have the same meaning the first time it is used.
Therefore, the theory of Original Sin comes tumbling down like a child's house of cards because of what Paul writes at Romans 5:15.
:chuckle:
You well know you only bring up the Original Sin bit, that you might then pound others over the head with your view about it.
If this ever insistent legalism of yours is not proof enough to you of the very existence of this sin nature ever dormant in our flesh, described by the Scripture - nothing will ever be proof enough. :chuckle:
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Nevertheless, Rom. 14: 5, towards you, Jer - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
At James 1:15 we read that sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
That means that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin. And since he dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then that means that before he sinned he was alive spiritually. That contradicts the teaching of the theory of Original Sin that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead.
That is just a symptom of your failure to rightly divide the things that differ.
There are different kinds of death these things are relating.
Being alienated from the life of God is the spiritual death of the lost person.
He is said to be dead in that sense.
Controlled by his nature in Adam, which is only able to produce fruit that is dead in God's eyes.
Result?
A death only able to produce more of the same - a death in trespasses and sins.
That which is flesh being flesh.
And that, in this mortal (subject to death) body of flesh.
He has no spiritual power able to produce fruit unto God.
Why do you think such are refered to as being of the night?
Theirs is the night of the living dead.
Which is where Hollywood gets all these ideas from.
And one goes from that alive (spirit is willing) and yet dead (but the flesh is weak), to that other alive (in Christ), and yet dead (to sin).
Another word often used is "sleep."
And its opposite "awake."
And then you have the impact of all that.
That thing that differs between when one finds one has ended up in that spiritual state OF MIND that results in walking after the flesh (sin having revived) at the expense of that spiritual state OF MIND that dies IN THAT MOMENT - walking AFTER or IN LINE WITH the Spirit.
And lost people also experience a DUALITY.
Though a DIFFERENT one, that saved people are also familiar with.
One the understanding of which helps shed light in carnal terms (as Paul would say) on all this.
Example, say that one has decided not to give in to a certain state OF MIND, preferring instead, a DIFFERENT one.
Only to find later that "Darn it, I did it again! I promised myself I would not go there but did just that - again!"
THAT is an instance of one having died to that state OF MIND they had desired after their inward man. THAT is ALSO an instance of this other UNDESIRED state OF MIND having revived ONCE MORE.
It is THAT kind of DUALITY that this that follows, is going on about...
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So then, with the MIND? Hunh?
In other words, MIND renewal - get out of a Romans 7 MIND, and get in the MIND or FOCUS or PERSPECTIVE that is Romans 8, and you'll find yourself delivered from the MIND or FOCUS that the body of THIS DEATH can not but result in.
This is what to walk IN newness of LIFE is.
It is to MIND the things of the Spirit - in contrast to - MINDING the things of...the fleshy MIND.
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
In other words the solution is to choose to FOCUS ON - to choose to BE chosen - to choose to BE who God has made one in His Son.
Which is a state of MIND issue.
A night of the living dead, issue.
Especially, given that...
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
The Believer has a choice as to which of the two spiritual deaths to walk in. Which of the two spiritual deaths to allow to reign in his mortal...body - Romans 6 - 8.
All brought to you, or made possible by, the Friendly Makers of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each...our stead. :thumb:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What kind of death is being referred to at James 1:15?
The only answer I ever give to open ended questions is always the same - I neither never practice the use of, nor ever answer open ended questions - especially where someone well known for attempting to bait others into his intended corner ("death") for them is concerned - state your case, and we'll go from there.
Beware the intended "death" behind the open ended question of some.
Nevertheless, Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have already stated my case because I said that it refers to spiritual death.
You obviously do not agree but you refuse to answer what kind of a death is being referred to in the verse.
You know what it isn't but you want to keep secret what it is.