Derf
Well-known member
Of course no one can be saved without God's gift of Jesus Christ. Are you saying there's another way?
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter Dougcho
- Start date
Derf
Well-known member
That's not what happened to Cornelius.
Acts 10:2 KJV — A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
No, not according to Calvinism. There is no such thing as volition in the Calvinist system. There isn't a rogue atom in all of existence, so says R.C. Sproul. If someone "develops a love for God" then that happens not merely because God predestined it, not just because of God's decree but because God Himself develops it in a manner that there was no alternative, no choice, no decision on anyone's part other than God's alone.
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
As such, the development of love is utterly impossible! Love by any normal definition or use of the term, implies that there is a volitional choice that has been made. The Calvinist system turns us all into so many versions of Pinocchio but without the ability to become real boys who are capable of performing selfless acts of love for their Creator.
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Derf
Well-known member
Not that part...the part where you say that some people were doomed to hell before the foundation of the world.
“And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He (Jesus) said,
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:26-27)
Since man is so messed up with his sin nature
and with being a captive (slave) of Satan ...
he is just not capable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel.
So, God must step in and make it possible for him!
How does He do this? >>> By giving him the faith to believe.
But, He doesn't do this for everyone ... only the ones He chooses.
These are the elect-called-chosen, which He guarantees will get to heaven.
All of this is Scriptural ... see the OP.
Why does what I believe (and posted) have to tie in with Calvinistic doctrine?
I have my own doctrine ... from the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:26-27)
Since man is so messed up with his sin nature
and with being a captive (slave) of Satan ...
he is just not capable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel.
So, God must step in and make it possible for him!
How does He do this? >>> By giving him the faith to believe.
But, He doesn't do this for everyone ... only the ones He chooses.
These are the elect-called-chosen, which He guarantees will get to heaven.
All of this is Scriptural ... see the OP.
Why does what I believe (and posted) have to tie in with Calvinistic doctrine?
I have my own doctrine ... from the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Calvinism says they are doomed by the whim of GOD...I contend they were self doomed by their own free will rejection of YHWH's gospel claims to be our LORD GOD and only saviour from sin.
That we both understand that since our election and reprobation was before the foundation of the world implies that for them that was when GOD gave into HIS whim to decree the election to salvation to some and not to others and is when I believe we were all existing and some made a free will choice to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD and only saviour from sin and others repudiated HIS gospel claims as lies proving him to be a false god, thus becoming reprobate by their own free will.
Sometimes, might as well be talkin' to the air!
No, you don't.
What you believe isn't "tied to Calvinism" it is Calvinism.
To whatever extent you believe the bible teaches what you believe about original sin, total depravity, et al., you are reading that doctrine into the text. Which is to say that you believe what you've been taught to believe and bring it with you to your bible reading and trick yourself into thinking that the bible actually teaches that God is arbitrary and unjust (same thing).
Derf
Well-known member
You mean, because that's all the good it's doing? You should then question your presuppositions.
Derf
Well-known member
Either way, you both think men were doomed before the bible says they existed.
I suggest that you read the book of Romans.
You might even need to do it with an open mind.
I have not only read the book of Romans, I have physically written it out by hand along with the rest of Paul's epistles.
Do you have ANY intention of responding to the arguments I've made, or is this sort of stupidity the best you've got?
I recently replied to your post #70.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Either way I think that ALL people existed as spirits (not men) before your interpretation of the bible says they existed:
Berean Standard Bible about the creation of the physical universe:
Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? All the sons of GOD, not angels which is an eisegetical interpretation chosen to push the created on earth hypothesis. The only reason I would not want to take this at face value would be based upon a wrong translation!
Derf
Well-known member
So you're saying that this:Either way I think that ALL people existed as spirits (not men) before your interpretation of the bible says they existed:
Berean Standard Bible about the creation of the physical universe:
Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? All the sons of GOD, not angels which is an eisegetical interpretation chosen to push the created on earth hypothesis. The only reason I would not want to take this at face value would be based upon a wrong translation!
---Job 1:6 KJV — Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.---
Means that people (men) are presenting themselves before God? And Satan is among the men? It makes me think you're the one with the eisegetical interpretation, especially since you ignored my reference to how God made mankind on earth in the first place:
Here's the reference:
[Gen 2:7 KJV] And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So before that point, man was not alive. There was no living soul of man before he BECAME a living soul.
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But not to the argument made. Quoting my post doesn't count as responding to the argument.
You've got nothing. Just like every other mindless Calvinist.
How does the JR pay you to espouse His false beliefs and to call people names?
By the year, month, week, day, post ... what?
LOL! You hardly ever type a post that does not presuppose my doctrine!
Fools are fools, Doug!
I call it as I see it - for free!
Besides, don't you believe that God has predestined me to type every word? You must believe that God decreed my every word and that I would win every debate I've ever engaged in on these topics. According to you, He predestined that you'd say self-contradictory, foolish and even blasphemous things and He predestined that I'd call you a fool for doing so. Who am I to fight against God, Doug?
The god your doctrine speaks of is unjust, unloving, unwise, and non-existent. It is a god that is the literal, by definition, opposite of that taught in the scripture. You give lip service to the real God's righteous character and call Him just and gracious but in the same breath ascribe to Him actions that are arbitrary and cruel. You are as forked tongued as the serpent of old and the extent to which you are blind to it is the extent to which you believe God has both split your tongue and blinded you. I can't think of a worse kind of foolishness than that!