UMC Prohibits Teaching ID

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
There is still a literal residue in both of you're beliefs, yet you at least have the common sense to grasped that ID birthed by Thought is the glue that holds the chaos together.

Significant parts of the New Testament use Stoic language. The basic tenets of Stoicism cannot be correct, however, it seems that it is a good match to frame NT thought. Both Paul and John evidently thought so. Jesus Christ is the embodiment of the logos. It is not chaos that he holds together but order. Stoic order was static. The universe is relational but must be dynamic in order to persist. 'Dynamic' means that the universe is constantly in the process of defining itself through intellect, wherever intellect is found. You can still be a Christian and not be a theist (i.e. a traditional dualist) but only if you accept Jesus Christ (the man) as your saviour and Lord. He, as the physical man, is the one and only embodiment of the logos, the ground of all thought. The Bible (Jesus in particular) says that no one has seen God. This means that you don't have to accept some given theology in order to be a Christian. The true God is revealed by Jesus alone. Can you bring yourself to commit yourself to him and his teachings?


Yes, it's obvious that you know almost nothing about Christianity, the Bible, Christian beliefs, basic logic or communication skills.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
Desert Reign said:
I suspect you are using words that mean nothing. But I don't want to prejudge. So if you could kindly translate this into ordinary language then I would comment further.

If you think 'phylogenetic' and and 'adaptation to the environment' are unknown concepts, then you need to open a biology 101 book.

Am I right in saying that you just here agreed with me? For all your words, you are saying that the main event of your theory of evolution cannot be predicted? Isn't that what I just said? And aren't you exaggerating slightly? Isn't it true that in fact it is not just 'extremely difficult' but rather impossible to predict?

Deeming it impossible is to make a claim about the capacity of all future science, and as such it doesn't belong. So no, it is extremely difficult.

You really think that you would have to be able to predict exactly where a genetic mutation would occur at an exact time for the theory of evolution to be a science?

We are talking about predictions. Prediction is the act of an intelligence, or rational beings.

Ever heard of stochastic predictions? Epistemological randomness does not prevent prediction, it prevents a certain type of prediction. It may even be ontologically random, because some of the events may be due to effects only describable by quantum mechanics and as such ontologically uncertain at the level of singular events and thus they are only describable by stochastic predictions, which is to say probability matrices. Not only that, environmental effects may be, at least in part, due to events that fall within chaos theory, like meteorology, so they are also rather complex.

But it was still a purposely designed experiment, right? So no randomness there. Did you understand what I said or are you purposely avoiding it? These organisms were given a citrate environment on purpose. If they had been given an ammonia environment or something like that, they would have all died instantly. This experiment didn't test the theory of evolution. A test of the theory would have been to throw random changes in the environment at these organisms to see if they adapted. The experiment tested our knowledge of the genetic structure of the organism but not the theory of evolution.

So now you demand utter randomness? :chuckle: Why would the environment be prone to absolute random events? You speak as though the only thing in nature are cataclysmic events. They happen, but they are rather rare and it is not as though the theory of evolution does not acknowledge that such events destroy the vast majority of life it affects.

It is not, it is rather competition that leads to an advantage for populations that develop the ability to utilize other forms of resources, as was the case in this experiment. Some of the populations evolved a metabolic pathway to utilize citric acid as a resource in addition to glucose and thus would out compete any of the populations that had not evolved this ability. That is evolution. NONE of the populations had the genes for this metabolic pathway at the outset (they were clones of each other). How do you explain the emergence of this metabolic pathway in only a few of the populations if it was not due to random mutations? Did the demiurge of ID descend down with his holy wrench of destiny to manipulate the genes to mask his original incompetence?

The same experiment have been done with lizards. They transported randomly selected members of a lizard population to another island. On the original island, these lizards lived off of insects. The island they transported the randomly selected individuals to, was lacking in insects by ripe with plant life. After almost 40 years they returned to observe. The transported lizard population had evolved in multiple ways. They had evolved cecal valves in their digestion systems, which greatly improves the energy extraction from plant materials which are of course harder to digest. They had also evolved to have larger heads with greater bite force better suited to eat plants.



What you are demanding with the bacteria has been done though, and it can be done by a high school student. Expose a bacterial culture to penicilin and see what happens. Genetic variation due to genetic drift will likely have rendered some bacteria immune and you end up with a population of penicilin resistant bacteria.

Given some random change in an enviroment, an organism will either die out or it will adapt to that change.

Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that this theory is unfalsifiable.

You forgot the part where the theory explains the principle and mechanisms by which this adaptation occurs.

Yes, because all the actually trained biologists out there are wrong. And you are not only right, you are right to a degree that it is obvious to "anyone with an ounce of sense". Seriously, do you actually believe that you understand this stuff better than all the professional biologists (and pretty much every other scientist in the world) in the world? You take hubris to a new level.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
If you think 'phylogenetic' and and 'adaptation to the environment' are unknown concepts, then you need to open a biology 101 book.Deeming it impossible is to make a claim about the capacity of all future science, and as such it doesn't belong. So no, it is extremely difficult.You really think that you would have to be able to predict exactly where a genetic mutation would occur at an exact time for the theory of evolution to be a science?Ever heard of stochastic predictions? Epistemological randomness does not prevent prediction, it prevents a certain type of prediction. It may even be ontologically random, because some of the events may be due to effects only describable by quantum mechanics and as such ontologically uncertain at the level of singular events and thus they are only describable by stochastic predictions, which is to say probability matrices. Not only that, environmental effects may be, at least in part, due to events that fall within chaos theory, like meteorology, so they are also rather complex.So now you demand utter randomness? :ch uckle: Why would the environment be prone to absolute random events? You speak as though the only thing in nature are cataclysmic events. They happen, but they are rather rare and it is not as though the theory of evolution does not acknowledge that such events destroy the vast majority of life it affects.It is not, it is rather competition that leads to an advantage for populations that develop the ability to utilize other forms of resources, as was the case in this experiment. Some of the populations evolved a metabolic pathway to utilize citric acid as a resource in addition to glucose and thus would out compete any of the populations that had not evolved this ability. That is evolution. NONE of the populations had the genes for this metabolic pathway at the outset (they were clones of each other). How do you explain the emergence of this metabolic pathway in only a few of the populations if it was not due to random mutations? Did the demiurge of ID descend down with his holy wrench of destiny to manipulate the genes to mask his original incompetence?The same experiment have been done with lizards. They transported randomly selected members of a lizard population to another island. On the original island, these lizards lived off of insects. The island they transported the randomly selected individuals to, was lacking in insects by ripe with plant life. After almost 40 years they returned to observe. The transported lizard population had evolved in multiple ways. They had evolved cecal valves in their digestion systems, which greatly improves the energy extraction from plant materials which are of course harder to digest. They had also evolved to have larger heads with greater bite force better suited to eat plants.YT=]LBv6-XORcLg[/YT]What you are demanding with the bacteria has been done though, and it can be done by a high school student. Expose a bacterial culture to penicilin and see what happens. Genetic variation due to genetic drift will likely have rendered some bacteria immune and you end up with a population of penicilin resistant bacteria.You forgot the part where the theory explains the principle and mechanisms by which this adaptation occurs.Yes, because all the actually trained biologists out there are wrong. And you are not only right, you are right to a degree that it is obvious to "anyone with an ounce of sense". Seriously, do you actually believe that you understand this stuff better than all the professional biologists (and pretty much every other scientist in the world) in the world? You take hubris to a new level.

:blabla:

Darwinists hate being called on their bigotry.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If you think 'phylogenetic' and and 'adaptation to the environment' are unknown concepts, then you need to open a biology 101 book.

I know what these terms mean. I was asking you to explain your sentence. A phylogenetic tree could be explained by ID. I am not a supporter of ID, as I previously stated, but you said that you could predict a species' position in the tree. I wanted you to expain that. From what I remember, a significant number of species were placed in the wrong part of the tree until their dna was analysed. That looks like a wrong prediction to my mind. You gave no examples of your assertions so I was just assuming you were blowing hot air.

Ever heard of stochastic predictions?
Strange as it may seem to you, yes I have. It is just that I am not convinced that stochastic predictions amount to predictions according to the standard understanding of the scientific method. If you recall the direction of my argument, I have no objection to the theory of evolution as a theory of history, but it simply doesn't qualify as a scientific theory because it doesn't make testable predictions.

The same experiment have been done with lizards. They transported randomly selected members of a lizard population to another island. On the original island, these lizards lived off of insects. The island they transported the randomly selected individuals to, was lacking in insects by ripe with plant life. After almost 40 years they returned to observe. The transported lizard population had evolved in multiple ways. They had evolved cecal valves in their digestion systems, which greatly improves the energy extraction from plant materials which are of course harder to digest. They had also evolved to have larger heads with greater bite force better suited to eat plants.
All of which is great biology but
1) Show me where someone predicted that the second population would evolve ways to eat plants before the experiment was conducted.
2) Show me how this study supports a theory of evolution and cannot support a theory of ID.
3) Show me a genetic tree of the lizards proving at which point the adaptation arose. In other words, how many generations did it actually take to evolve this adaptation?
4) (related to 2) I was given to understand that adaptations took millions of years. It seems obvious to me that what has happened here is not a prediction of a theory of evolution by random mutation and natural selection but something much more purpose driven. Explain why I should believe that after only a few generations, the exact suitable mutation has occurred to save the population? I don't believe in the ID theory but if I had no other knowledge, I would say that intelligence was behind this change, not random mutations. Show me where I went wrong here, please?

Yes, because all the actually trained biologists out there are wrong. And you are not only right, you are right to a degree that it is obvious to "anyone with an ounce of sense". Seriously, do you actually believe that you understand this stuff better than all the professional biologists (and pretty much every other scientist in the world) in the world? You take hubris to a new level.
Are you a professional biologist?
Since when was this a discussion open to professional biologists only?
What kind of an argument is "If only you were one of the people who I usually agree with, you would agree with me"?
 

gcthomas

New member
I know what these terms mean. I was asking you to explain your sentence. A phylogenetic tree could be explained by ID. I am not a supporter of ID, as I previously stated, but you said that you could predict a species' position in the tree. I wanted you to expain that. From what I remember, a significant number of species were placed in the wrong part of the tree until their dna was analysed. That looks like a wrong prediction to my mind. You gave no examples of your assertions so I was just assuming you were blowing hot air.



Strange as it may seem to you, yes I have. It is just that I am not convinced that stochastic predictions amount to predictions according to the standard understanding of the scientific method. If you recall the direction of my argument, I have no objection to the theory of evolution as a theory of history, but it simply doesn't qualify as a scientific theory because it doesn't make testable predictions.



All of which is great biology but
1) Show me where someone predicted that the second population would evolve ways to eat plants before the experiment was conducted.
2) Show me how this study supports a theory of evolution and cannot support a theory of ID.
3) Show me a genetic tree of the lizards proving at which point the adaptation arose. In other words, how many generations did it actually take to evolve this adaptation?
4) (related to 2) I was given to understand that adaptations took millions of years. It seems obvious to me that what has happened here is not a rediction of a theory of evolution by random mutation and natural selection but something much more purpose driven. Explain why I should believe that after only a few generations, the exact suitable mutation has occurred to save the population? I don't believe in the ID theory but if I had no other knkowledge, I would say that intelligence was behind this change, not random mutations. Show me where I went wrong here, please?



Are you a professional biologist?
Since was this a discussion open to professional biologists only?

Here is (part of) their prediction:
Our prediction is that if natural selection is the dominant force, then we would expect all populations to evolve shorter hindlimbs as they adapt to using narrower substrates; moreover, vegetation differences among experimental founder islands would be expected to produce a relationship between hindlimb length and perch diameter [reviewed in (22)]. Conversely, if founder effects are dominant, then we would expect no general trend in limb length evolution, with some populations increasing in limb length and others decreasing with respect to the source population, and limb variation being unrelated to vegetation differences among islands.

And part of their results:
As predicted by the adaptive relationship between hindlimb length and substrate diameter (22), relative hindlimb length decreased greatly over the course of 3 years on all seven experimental founder islands (P < 0.0001; table S4 and Fig. 4, inset), with a decrease of 6.5% for males and 4.0% for females (calculated at the median body size for each sex; table S5 and fig. S4). The magnitude of this decrease in hindlimb length was so great that mean values in 2006 are nearly nonoverlapping with 2009 values (Fig. 4, inset).


Results matched evolutionary predictions. QED. Bingo.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
Desert Reign said:
I know what these terms mean. I was asking you to explain your sentence. A phylogenetic tree could be explained by ID. I am not a supporter of ID, as I previously stated, but you said that you could predict a species' position in the tree. I wanted you to expain that.

A phylogenetic tree cannot be explained by ID, since ID postulates random interventions into the natural order. How could you establish a tree of genetic relationships if you have to consider that sometimes, according to no proposed law or mechanism at all, there is an intervention from an intelligent designer to introduce a new 'irreducibly complex' feature? Phylogenetics work because of genetic similarities and the assumption that genetic change happen in a uniform way according to naturalistic principles.

From what I remember, a significant number of species were placed in the wrong part of the tree until their dna was analysed

Is that supposed to be an objection to the theory of evolution? More accurate methods producing more accurate results. Of course the phylogenetic tree will be revised as we understand more, but the more accurate trees have no invalidated the core theory, it rather confirms it. Just as newly discovered genetic mechanisms do not invalidate it, it just reveals more of it.

Strange as it may seem to you, yes I have. It is just that I am not convinced that stochastic predictions amount to predictions according to the standard understanding of the scientific method.

Then I assume you reject the most succesful theory that natural science has ever produced, quantum mechanics, as well? It operates by predicting probability matrices of stochastic processes.

I have no objection to the theory of evolution as a theory of history, but it simply doesn't qualify as a scientific theory because it doesn't make testable predictions.

Which is nonsense.


All of which is great biology but

See gcthomas' post.

Are you a professional biologist?

No, then again I'm not claiming to overturn the consensus of every relevant expert in the field.

Since when was this a discussion open to professional biologists only?

It is. Problem is that you make claims that are so full of hubris that is ridiculous. You claim that your position, that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable, is so obvious that anyone with "an ounce of sense" could see it. Of course, no actual biologist, or pretty much any philosopher of science agrees with that.

What kind of an argument is "If only you were one of the people who I usually agree with, you would agree with me"?

It would only be agreeing with me insofar as I accurately present the consensus of the relevant experts. It is when you disagree with ALL the experts that it becomes problematic. Especially when you have shown no signs of having any in-depth understanding of the theory at all.

What exactly do you propose as an alternative theory of biological diversity and the continuing diversification of biological lifeforms?
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
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Here is (part of) their prediction:
Our prediction is that if natural selection is the dominant force, then we would expect all populations to evolve shorter hindlimbs as they adapt to using narrower substrates; moreover, vegetation differences among experimental founder islands would be expected to produce a relationship between hindlimb length and perch diameter [reviewed in (22)]. Conversely, if founder effects are dominant, then we would expect no general trend in limb length evolution, with some populations increasing in limb length and others decreasing with respect to the source population, and limb variation being unrelated to vegetation differences among islands.

And part of their results:
As predicted by the adaptive relationship between hindlimb length and substrate diameter (22), relative hindlimb length decreased greatly over the course of 3 years on all seven experimental founder islands (P < 0.0001; table S4 and Fig. 4, inset), with a decrease of 6.5% for males and 4.0% for females (calculated at the median body size for each sex; table S5 and fig. S4). The magnitude of this decrease in hindlimb length was so great that mean values in 2006 are nearly nonoverlapping with 2009 values (Fig. 4, inset).


Results matched evolutionary predictions. QED. Bingo.

I don't want to prejudge this one way or the other but for now I have some questions:
What time frame was the prediction over? After all, given a long enough period, such mutations would occur anyway. If the prediction didn't have a time frame, how can it be falsified?
Was the change in hind leg length proven to be due to genetic mutations?
Were other genetic mutations noted? I mean, your theory states that many mutations will occur and that some will be neutral to the environment and will persist whilst others will be non-survivable and so will occur in maximum one generation whilst others will demonstrate enhanced survivability and will dominate. I would find it just a little suspicious if the only mutations found were those whch enhanced survivability, wouldn't you?

So not QED yet.

Also, I will overlook that you actually didn't answer my question at all and will raise that with Selaphiel. Unless you want to answer it still.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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stripey breaks the irony meter once more!
Nope. OP spoke about a bunch of evolutionists prohibiting the teaching of Intelligent Design.

Evolutionists began dancing with joy:

Can't blame 'em.

Good on them.

And when called on their bigotry, the Darwinists decide there ore other things they need this discussion to be about.

If this were a science issue, the evolutionists would be against the suppression of the discussion of ideas. However, their precious religion will broach no opposition.

See, when I make an accusation, it is based on what has actually happened in the discussion. When you trot out your "irony meter" nonsense, it is nothing but an unfounded attempt to sneak a tu quoque fallacy past the radar.

You're nothing but a troll. :troll:
 

gcthomas

New member
I don't want to prejudge this one way or the other but for now I have some questions:
What time frame was the prediction over? After all, given a long enough period, such mutations would occur anyway. If the prediction didn't have a time frame, how can it be falsified?
Was the change in hind leg length proven to be due to genetic mutations?
Were other genetic mutations noted? I mean, your theory states that many mutations will occur and that some will be neutral to the environment and will persist whilst others will be non-survivable and so will occur in maximum one generation whilst others will demonstrate enhanced survivability and will dominate. I would find it just a little suspicious if the only mutations found were those whch enhanced survivability, wouldn't you?

So not QED yet.
Fair questions, and those are answered in the published paper - if you want to know all the details of the methodology and assessment of the data then you will have to go and read it. I don't really want to spend time making a précis of what is quite a dense and detailed document. Find it here.

But is is a good experiment that was able, and intended, to separate population changes into founder effects and selection effects. Check it out.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
OP spoke about a bunch of evolutionists prohibiting the teaching of Intelligent Design.

Evolutionists began dancing with joy:

Creationists should be dancing with joy as well, because:

Henry M. Morris of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) wrote in 1999 that Intelligent Design "...will not work! It has often been tried in the past and has failed, and it will fail today. The reason it won't work is because it is not the Biblical method." In 2002, Carl Wieland, then of Answers in Genesis (AiG), criticized design advocates who, though well-intentioned, "left the Bible out of it" and thereby unwittingly aided and abetted the modern rejection of the Bible. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

The Discovery Institute's own website states:

Indeed, according to AIG, "many prominent figures in the IDM reject or are hostile to Biblical creation, especially the notion of recent creation...Creationists believe that God made current life-forms from scratch. The ID movement takes no position on how life got here, and many adherents believe in evolution. Some even grant a role to the evolutionary engine posited by Darwin: natural selection."​

Elsewhere, the Discovery Institute states:

ID holds that there are tell-tale features of living systems and the universe that are best explained by a designing intelligence. The theory does not challenge the idea of evolution defined as change over time, or even common ancestry, but it disputes Darwin's idea that the cause of biological change is wholly blind and undirected.​

Many in the Intelligent Design movement reject the idea of a recent creation and believe in evolution via intelligent, directed processes. That sounds like a variation of theistic evolution to me.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
A phylogenetic tree cannot be explained by ID, since ID postulates random interventions into the natural order. How could you establish a tree of genetic relationships if you have to consider that sometimes, according to no proposed law or mechanism at all, there is an intervention from an intelligent designer to introduce a new 'irreducibly complex' feature? Phylogenetics work because of genetic similarities and the assumption that genetic change happen in a uniform way according to naturalistic principles.
Perhaps an intelligent designer would think of creating abilities which were not necessary in some given environment but could be necessary in another. He could then make those traits dormant so as to make the organism more efficient. But when the environment changed, those traits could mutate into activity that enhanced survivability? If I were that designer, I would make such traits go in families so that some organisms were bound to survive, whatever the environment. My method would account for all the species diversity in existence. The current theory that mutations are purely random doesn't account for it because it predicts that a great many more mutations are non-survivable than survivable. My theory (I am just supposing) would allow a larger proportion of beneficial mutations to occur.

Is that supposed to be an objection to the theory of evolution? More accurate methods producing more accurate results. Of course the phylogenetic tree will be revised as we understand more, but the more accurate trees have no invalidated the core theory, it rather confirms it. Just as newly discovered genetic mechanisms do not invalidate it, it just reveals more of it.
But those new discoveries were not predicted. So all the discoveries you make don't support the overall theory. They, like almost everything else about the theory, are post hoc.

Then I assume you reject the most succesful theory that natural science has ever produced, quantum mechanics, as well? It operates by predicting probability matrices of stochastic processes.
If you know the probabilities of certain events occurring and you have enough of them, then of course you can predict general outcomes with some accuracy. But you don't predict the actual events. The general outcome you have predicted accurately is just a sum for your own convenience. You can always predict things if you define your prediction loosely enough.


See gcthomas' post.
See my response to him. You didn't answer my exact questions. I look forward with interest to the exact answers.


It would only be agreeing with me insofar as I accurately present the consensus of the relevant experts.
Relevant being the ones you agree with.

It is when you disagree with ALL the experts that it becomes problematic. Especially when you have shown no signs of having any in-depth understanding of the theory at all.
You can't prove that I am disagreeing with all the experts.
If your definition of an expert is someone you agree with then you haven't proven anything at all.

What exactly do you propose as an alternative theory of biological diversity and the continuing diversification of biological lifeforms?
I'm not proposing anything. I am just trying to take down your own hubris a peg or two since you seem to think that because you once wrote an essay on the subject that this makes your view more right than anyone else's. Your own answers seem to amount to little more than 'who are you to question my beliefs?' Sorry chum, but that is what we are here for, like it or not.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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Creationists should be dancing with joy as well, because:

Henry M. Morris [said] it is not the Biblical method.​

Many in the Intelligent Design movement reject the idea of a recent creation and believe in evolution via intelligent, directed processes. That sounds like a variation of theistic evolution to me.

Is it your sole purpose to provide useless information?

Leaping to help camouflage your brethren from evidence that you're a bunch of bigots would work better if you had something of relevance to offer.

Showing us that creationists are willing to engage in the discussion with the ID movement does nothing to hide the fact that when Darwinists see debate being squashed, they leap for joy.

I don't endorse the suppression of ideas. I look for healthy discussion of sensible and useful ones. Evolutionists do anything to pretend that their religion is the only game in town.

So please, go away with your useless links. :up:
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
If you think 'phylogenetic' and and 'adaptation to the environment' are unknown concepts, then you need to open a biology 101 book.



Deeming it impossible is to make a claim about the capacity of all future science, and as such it doesn't belong. So no, it is extremely difficult.

You really think that you would have to be able to predict exactly where a genetic mutation would occur at an exact time for the theory of evolution to be a science?



Ever heard of stochastic predictions? Epistemological randomness does not prevent prediction, it prevents a certain type of prediction. It may even be ontologically random, because some of the events may be due to effects only describable by quantum mechanics and as such ontologically uncertain at the level of singular events and thus they are only describable by stochastic predictions, which is to say probability matrices. Not only that, environmental effects may be, at least in part, due to events that fall within chaos theory, like meteorology, so they are also rather complex.



So now you demand utter randomness? :chuckle: Why would the environment be prone to absolute random events? You speak as though the only thing in nature are cataclysmic events. They happen, but they are rather rare and it is not as though the theory of evolution does not acknowledge that such events destroy the vast majority of life it affects.

It is not, it is rather competition that leads to an advantage for populations that develop the ability to utilize other forms of resources, as was the case in this experiment. Some of the populations evolved a metabolic pathway to utilize citric acid as a resource in addition to glucose and thus would out compete any of the populations that had not evolved this ability. That is evolution. NONE of the populations had the genes for this metabolic pathway at the outset (they were clones of each other). How do you explain the emergence of this metabolic pathway in only a few of the populations if it was not due to random mutations? Did the demiurge of ID descend down with his holy wrench of destiny to manipulate the genes to mask his original incompetence?

The same experiment have been done with lizards. They transported randomly selected members of a lizard population to another island. On the original island, these lizards lived off of insects. The island they transported the randomly selected individuals to, was lacking in insects by ripe with plant life. After almost 40 years they returned to observe. The transported lizard population had evolved in multiple ways. They had evolved cecal valves in their digestion systems, which greatly improves the energy extraction from plant materials which are of course harder to digest. They had also evolved to have larger heads with greater bite force better suited to eat plants.



What you are demanding with the bacteria has been done though, and it can be done by a high school student. Expose a bacterial culture to penicilin and see what happens. Genetic variation due to genetic drift will likely have rendered some bacteria immune and you end up with a population of penicilin resistant bacteria.



You forgot the part where the theory explains the principle and mechanisms by which this adaptation occurs.

Yes, because all the actually trained biologists out there are wrong. And you are not only right, you are right to a degree that it is obvious to "anyone with an ounce of sense". Seriously, do you actually believe that you understand this stuff better than all the professional biologists (and pretty much every other scientist in the world) in the world? You take hubris to a new level.

All your lizards prove is micro evolution. Species/kinds adapting to the environment. But they are still the same lizards. Just as Polar Bears and Grizzy Bears have adapted to their environments and yet the are essentially the same Bear, able to breed.


We have seen this in humans with isolated populations changing characteristics, skin pigment etc... We are all human beings.

Macro evolution, all life coming from one cell, is far from proved.

The amount of information in DNA did not happen by accident as many mathematicians and biologists agree.

Banning design theories and scientists is foolishness.

Design won't give skeptics all the answers they crave. But it does point to the fact that there is much more than the fish can see in the fish bowl.
 

Stripe

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Ah, a Sillyfile post. Let's play spot the fallacy. :up:

A phylogenetic tree cannot be explained by ID, since ID postulates random interventions into the natural order.
Straw man.
ID does not propose "random interventions."

How could you establish a tree of genetic relationships if you have to consider that sometimes, according to no proposed law or mechanism at all, there is an intervention from an intelligent designer to introduce a new 'irreducibly complex' feature?
Question begging.
ID does not require a "tree of genetic relationships."

Phylogenetics work because of genetic similarities and the assumption that genetic change happen in a uniform way according to naturalistic principles.
Closed-minded assertion.
An explanation does not eliminate the validity of another explanation.

Is that supposed to be an objection to the theory of evolution? More accurate methods producing more accurate results. Of course the phylogenetic tree will be revised as we understand more, but the more accurate trees have no invalidated the core theory, it rather confirms it. Just as newly discovered genetic mechanisms do not invalidate it, it just reveals more of it.

Outright lie.
No "genetic mechanism" confirms the phylogenetic tree. They all deny it.

Then I assume you reject the most succesful theory that natural science has ever produced, quantum mechanics, as well? It operates by predicting probability matrices of stochastic processes.
Argument from assumed consequence.
Your irrelevant assertion has no part in this discussion.

Which is nonsense.
Nonsense.

See gcthomas' post.
Passing the buck.

No, then again I'm not claiming to overturn the consensus of every relevant expert in the field. It is. Problem is that you make claims that are so full of hubris that is ridiculous. You claim that your position, that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable, is so obvious that anyone with "an ounce of sense" could see it. Of course, no actual biologist, or pretty much any philosopher of science agrees with that. It would only be agreeing with me insofar as I accurately present the consensus of the relevant experts. It is when you disagree with ALL the experts that it becomes problematic. Especially when you have shown no signs of having any in-depth understanding of the theory at all.
Argumentum ad populum.

What exactly do you propose as an alternative theory of biological diversity and the continuing diversification of biological lifeforms?
Irrelevant demand.
There need not be a replacement idea presented to show that an existing theory is bogus.

A good effort by Sillyfile, but Cabinethead still holds the record. :second:
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The Discovery Institute is actively working to suppress YE creationism:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/discovery_insti_1055841.html
:darwinsm:
If you want to employ the tu quoque fallacy to fool people into disregarding the fact that Darwinists hate opposition, you should find non-evolutionists to accuse of the same practice.

Boy are you stupid. :chuckle:

And since you like links so much:


What is the Center for Science and Culture?
The Center for Science and Culture is a Discovery Institute program ... that encourage schools to improve science education by teaching students more fully about the theory of evolution.

Is intelligent design theory incompatible with evolution?
It depends on what one means by the word “evolution.” If one simply means “change over time,” or even that living things are related by common ancestry, then there is no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and intelligent design theory.


http://www.discovery.org/id/faqs/
 
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User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
If you want to employ the tu quoque fallacy to fool people into disregarding the fact that Darwinists hate opposition, you should find non-evolutionists to accuse of the same practice.

Why does the Discovery Institute oppose the teaching of YE Creationism in schools?
 

Jose Fly

New member
Yes, it's obvious that you know almost nothing about Christianity, the Bible, Christian beliefs, basic logic or communication skills.

Well, you pretty much missed the point there. In this thread you've deemed yourself qualified to declare the entire field of evolutionary biology to not be science, but in doing so you've also very clearly demonstrated that you don't know much about evolutionary biology. (Selaphiel is telling you the same thing, just more politely) Now what would make a person do such a ridiculous thing? That's where the Dunning-Kruger Effect comes to mind.

As far as me and Christianity, what exactly do you think I don't know about it?
 
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