ECT Tyndale's Translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and the One Man Anti-Christ

[northwye]

"But even without I Corinthians 10: 11, since Ezekiel 5: 1-12 gives us general principles about multitudes who it can be seen are in error, not obeying God, and the remnant, we can apply what is said there to New Covenant apostasy of the multitude, and to whom might that apostasy happen? To the Church. It may be that the whole object here is a defense of the Church from any prophecy about its apostasy."

Saying or implying that the spirit of anti-Christ is not in the world now or in the future is likewise a defense of the Church by preterists to maybe keep some from believing in an apostasy which has already been going on and led by both the spirit of anti-Christ and the false prophets. There has already been a falling away and some fulfillment of Luke 13: 20-21, I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 1-8, II Timothy 3: 13, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and I Timothy 6:20-21.

The remnant of Revelation 7 and 14 and of Revelation 12: 15-17 exists but it is yet to gain its spiritual legs. The Church does not know it is in apostasy or that the remnant is already starting to come out of it. I am not sure what role the so-called Christian Internet forums might play in all this. If the Internet continues as is, it will likely have a role.

 

[Interplanner]

"But even without I Corinthians 10: 11, since Ezekiel 5: 1-12 gives us general principles about multitudes who it can be seen are in error, not obeying God, and the remnant, we can apply what is said there to New Covenant apostasy of the multitude, and to whom might that apostasy happen? To the Church. It may be that the whole object here is a defense of the Church from any prophecy about its apostasy."

Saying or implying that the spirit of anti-Christ is not in the world now or in the future is likewise a defense of the Church by preterists to maybe keep some from believing in an apostasy which has already been going on and led by both the spirit of anti-Christ and the false prophets. There has already been a falling away and some fulfillment of Luke 13: 20-21, I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 1-8, II Timothy 3: 13, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and I Timothy 6:20-21.

The remnant exists but it is yet to gain its spiritual legs.

Since most of the Rev is about the 1st century situation, you must be referring to the harassment of the believers in Rev 20 in which Satan is overthrown on the last day of the world. Similarity, yes, but not the same event as what took place in Judea in 66+

 

[Danoh]

"But even without I Corinthians 10: 11, since Ezekiel 5: 1-12 gives us general principles about multitudes who it can be seen are in error, not obeying God, and the remnant, we can apply what is said there to New Covenant apostasy of the multitude, and to whom might that apostasy happen? To the Church. It may be that the whole object here is a defense of the Church from any prophecy about its apostasy."

Saying or implying that the spirit of anti-Christ is not in the world now or in the future is likewise a defense of the Church by preterists to maybe keep some from believing in an apostasy which has already been going on and led by both the spirit of anti-Christ and the false prophets. There has already been a falling away and some fulfillment of Luke 13: 20-21, I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 1-8, II Timothy 3: 13, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and I Timothy 6:20-21.

The remnant of Revelation 7 and 14 and of Revelation 12: 15-17 exists but it is yet to gain its spiritual legs. The Church does not know it is in apostasy or that the remnant is already starting to come out of it. I am not sure what role the so-called Christian Internet forums might play in all this. If the Internet continues as is, it will likely have a role.

I've known my share of those who hold to one aspect of Preterism or another.

None have ever struck me as being up to what you hereinabove ascribe to them.

Rather; they have their view of things - traditions of men though their views are.

 

[Interplanner]

"But even without I Corinthians 10: 11, since Ezekiel 5: 1-12 gives us general principles about multitudes who it can be seen are in error, not obeying God, and the remnant, we can apply what is said there to New Covenant apostasy of the multitude, and to whom might that apostasy happen? To the Church. It may be that the whole object here is a defense of the Church from any prophecy about its apostasy."

Saying or implying that the spirit of anti-Christ is not in the world now or in the future is likewise a defense of the Church by preterists to maybe keep some from believing in an apostasy which has already been going on and led by both the spirit of anti-Christ and the false prophets. There has already been a falling away and some fulfillment of Luke 13: 20-21, I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 1-8, II Timothy 3: 13, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and I Timothy 6:20-21.

The remnant exists but it is yet to gain its spiritual legs.

Since most of the Rev is about the 1st century situation, you must be referring to the harassment of the believers in Rev 20 in which Satan is overthrown on the last day of the world.

 

[northwye]

"And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12. Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days." Daniel 10: 11-14

The angel was sent to give Daniel the prophecy which is written in Daniel 11 and also in Daniel 12. The Church, in its literalism, fixated on that which is of the letter (II Corinthians 3:6)tends to say that Daniel 11 is only a prophecy fulfilled in Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who ruled the Jews for a time and outlawed Jewish religious ceremonies, including circumcision and traditions and ordered the worship of Zeus by the Jews.

"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." Daniel 11: 31

Supposedly, Antiochus IV Epiphanes sat up a statute or alter to Zeus in the Second Temple in Jerusalem and sacrificed pigs on it around the year 168 BC.

But - Daniel 12 must be part of the prophecy given to Daniel by the angel in Daniel 10.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9. And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10.Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12: 2-10

And in Daniel 11 there is a prophecy - Daniel 11:33-35 - which is like the prophecy of Daniel 12: 2-10 in being about the time of the end, which is not the First Century, but the time of resurrection of the elect as in Daniel 12: 2-3.

The prophecy given to Daniel by the angel in Daniel 10 was not just about the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but also about the time of redemption of the elect. The time period in which that prophecy given to Daniel in Daniel 10 was to be fulfilled did not end in the the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, nor did it end in the First Century.

 

[Squeaky]

What do you do with these?

1 Cor 1:20-21
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
(NKJ)

1 Cor 1:25-28
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
(NKJ)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Christians fail to correctly identify anti-Christ because they are looking for him to come later, and "he" is not one man as is taught by the huge number of false prophets (Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3).

Here is what is said about him by Paul:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess.2:9).

In the Revelation the Apostle speaks of the same wicked one here:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:13-14).​

It is obvious that these events have not yet come to pass so the wicked one has not yet appeared on the scene.

 

[northwye]

Scripture is taught in a didactic way, not in dialogue. Christian Zionists and preterists try to teach their theologies on forums in a dialectic way, within dialogue. For those with the dialectic mind, there are no facts, no absolute Truths or absolute morals. However, to some extent the Christian Zionists and preterists treat their interpretations of scripture as "facts."

It is a fact, independent of Christian Zionist or preterist theology that false prophets or the false prophet are seen in Revelation 16: 13, 19: 20 and 20: 10.

Revelation 19: 20 says "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

This is in metaphoric language, using literal and physical war to talk about a spiritual conflict between Christ and his faithful followers - those which follow the Lamb wherever he goes - which the Christian Zionists do not accept as metaphoric. But there are statements in Revelation 19: 20 which refer to the false prophet as being the one who in Revelation 13: 16-17 causes people to receive the mark of the beast. This can be taken as fact - that the false prophet, or the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 - is the second beast who is introduced in Revelation 13: 11, who has two horns like a lamb and speaks as a dragon, that is, deceptively, and who uses the dialectic procedure of argument in a dialogue, as with Eve in Genesis 3: 1-6.

The false prophet is defined in Matthew 24: 5, "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." The false prophet, unlike the one who follows the spirit of anti-Christ, says Jesus is the Christ, but the false prophet deceived many by the doctrines he teaches.

The follower of the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3) is defined in this verse, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

The one who comes in the spirit of anti-Christ, of which John says in I John 2: 18 "even now there are many anti-Christs," teaches that Christ did not come in he flesh and that Christ did not come as the Old Testament prophecies said he would. But the false prophet teaches that there is a Christ who came much as as described, but the false prophet does not teach the doctrines of Christ or does not teach some major parts of the doctrine of Christ.

Then, the question is what evidence is there in II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 that the man of sin is the anti-Christ, that is, of the spirit of anti-Christ? That the man of sin is to sit in the temple of God is metaphoric because of what is said about temples in Acts 7: 48, I Corinthians 3: 16-16 and In I Corinthians 6: 19.

But for Christian Zionists II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 must be literal and about a literal anti-Christ guy sitting literally in a physical rebuilt temple in Jerusalem - because C.I. Scofield said all prophecy is literal and never spiritualized.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is in metaphoric language, using literal and physical war to talk about a spiritual conflict between Christ and his faithful followers - those which follow the Lamb wherever he goes - which the Christians Zionists do not accept.

If the following prophecy is not to be taken literally then it must have another meaning:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:13-14).​

What is your interpretation of the meaning of this passage?

 

[Danoh]

Who in what temple?

Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 5:41 I receive not honour from men. 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Temples in...the Temple of God...

Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Mark 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

In the above, He, in "the temple of His body,...went into the Temple of God."

More temples
...in the Temple of God.

Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Another one of The Spirit's temples goes into the Temple of God.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

The Apostle Paul was NOT referring to the man of sin in the temple of God (the Believer), rather in the Temple of God at Jerusalem.

Further, the Prophecy concerns events "in the holy place" at Jerusalem (located in what was then known as the southern province of Roman Judaea ).

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

He was referring to one coming in his own name as God Himself...

Not this...

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

But a counterfeit...

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Why do they buy into his lie?

Because they are just like him. Just as he is ever high-fiving himself; they are ever high-fiving one another.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

 

[Squeaky]

I apologize I wont bother you no more.

 

[Danoh]

I apologize I wont bother you no more.

You might want to address by name, whom it was you were addressing that to.

As in Scripture - wherein things that differ - that are not the same - are far too often taken as being one and the same...

...unless you address a specific party, your above will end up perceived as the "one size fits all" that far too many make of all Scripture.

 

[Squeaky]

You might want to address by name, whom it was you were addressing that to.

As in Scripture - wherein things that differ - that are not the same - are far too often taken as being one and the same...

...unless you address a specific party, your above will end up perceived as the "one size fits all" that far too many make of all Scripture.

I said
It doesn't make any difference to me who answers it. I just like to hear peoples logic on why they trust their own opinion over scripture. But I know I make people nervous when I ask, so I try to be respectful.

 

[northwye]

This thread - Tyndale's Translation of II Thessalonians 2: 7 and the One Man Anti-Christ - is about two different translations of II Thessalonians 2: 7, within II Thessalonians 2: 3-7. First of all II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 and the other NT scriptures listed are about prophecy saying that an apostasy is to occur.

Who engages in that apostasy?

"It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20. And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21. It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." Luke 13: 19-21 What is said to become leavened? Luke 13: 19 calls it the kingdom of God.

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." Revelation 18: 21-23

The light of Christ and the voice of the Bridegroom and of his bride were once hard in what is called Babylon, but the light shines no more and the voice of Christ and of his bride are heard no more in Babylon.

A number of New Testament scriptures give authority to the expectation of an apostasy, or, considering the apostasy of the Catholic Church, of another major apostasy. An apostasy means that the teachers, for example, in II Timothy 4: 3 that "they" - some people - gather to themselves, are teaching false doctrines. II Peter 2: 1-3 says there will be false prophets and false teachers who bring in damnable heresies, and many of their followers will speak evil of the truth. II Timothy 3: 7 says the apostates will resist the truth.