Two Laws - Moral & Ceremonial

[clefty]

Clefty, would you call the instruction to keep Passover in Lev 23 moral or ceremonial?

ceremonial...but with less and less distinction from the moral...other gods have laws concerning murder stealing sex lies worship etc which are moral and yet His contains more...His festivals...and Sabbath

And do you keep all the other feasts commanded in Lev 23?

I try...I am fond of saying I don’t keep them they keep me...

I also don’t eat the unclean meats...as I am vegetarian...ha

 

[clefty]

Let's say for the sake of discussion that Christ only died once.

We know the law is spiritual, right?

"For we know that the law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14)

Christ's death did not pay for physical sin, we know it has been appointed for humans to die once.

But what about sin?

Sin is spiritual and requires spiritual death, which has nothing to do with physical death.

Those who are baptized die with Christ.

Not physically, but spiritually.

Those who die with Christ are freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)

"Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:11)

We are freed from sin by being buried with Christ.

"So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." (Hebrews 9:28)

What does any of this have to do with passover being a thank offering?...a “thanks for passing over” memorial itself a meal and an act of faith as the lamb was eaten prior the passing over...

Sin offering itself like the day of atonement did not actually get rid of sin just symbolically walked sin out of the camp...the goat was released into the wilderness to die...BUT DID THEY? goats are herding animals and probably just scampered back into camp as the people moved on...

Again even the day of atonement did NOT rid them of sin...obviously

But symbolized a desire on their part to have it rid...a shadow of things to come

 

[iouae]

ceremonial...but with less and less distinction from the moral...other gods have laws concerning murder stealing sex lies worship etc which are moral and yet His contains more...His festivals...and Sabbath

I try...I am fond of saying I don’t keep them they keep me...

I also don’t eat the unclean meats...as I am vegetarian...ha

Vegetarian is good. Some of my best friends are herbivores


We are on the same page then when it comes to keeping the Sabbath and annual Holy Days. And I don't eat unclean meats either, but do eat the clean ones.

I don't think the distinction between moral and ceremonial laws works.
I just keep some OT laws which I feel are relevant and maybe were mentioned in the NT.
I don't believe any laws were nailed to the cross. "The handwriting of ordinance" refers, IMO to our sin sheet which was nailed to the cross with the criminal.

But Acts 15 makes it clear to me that Gentiles are not required to do most OT laws. They would however have kept and met on the Sabbath, would not have eaten unclean foods, would have kept the Holy Days, but not in Jerusalem - kept them as sabbaths where they lived. That's what I do anyhow.

I do not believe a single OT law has been done away, since Christ will implement them all right back when He establishes His kingdom on earth, sacrifices and all.

 

[clefty]

Vegetarian is good

biblical and in our future I imagine unless there is meat tree in paradise...lol

We are on the same page then when it comes to keeping the Sabbath

...good good...however I dont keep Friday sundown but from Sabbath morning to evening...Sabbath Day...

How we keep Holy something made Holy is another thread too...lol

and annual Holy Days. And I don't eat unclean meats either, but do eat the clean ones.

again how we keep etc...all good discussion topics

I don't think the distinction between moral and ceremonial laws works.

I see it less and less too as mentioned...other gods have morals too and ceremonies...one brings the other is why jots and tittles matter...

I just keep some OT laws which I feel are relevant and maybe were mentioned in the NT.

uh?

I don't believe any laws were nailed to the cross. "The handwriting of ordinance" refers, IMO to our sin sheet which was nailed to the cross with the criminal.

yes...and I add to that the emnity or the “against us” of blood letting do to capital punishment...the eye for an eye laws...we all sin and judgment day coming...of course keep the sheep safe from the criminal goats but that is of course Caesars domain...

That being said even the theif in the cross deserved to die for his crime but because of his faith and works what was nailed to the cross next to Him was the consequence of his actions in the afterlife...he did not have to die the second death...THAT is the what is against us the curse..and now in Him we no longer suffer that consequence for breaking the still existing still binding Laws

But Acts 15 makes it clear to me that Gentiles are not required to do most OT laws. They would however have kept and met on the Sabbath, would not have eaten unclean foods, would have kept the Holy Days, but not in Jerusalem - kept them as sabbaths where they lived. That's what I do anyhow.

that is already a lot more than traditional Christian understanding includes...

I do not believe a single OT law has been done away, since Christ will implement them all right back when He establishes His kingdom on earth, sacrifices and all.

Not sure about this as blood sacrifice demands death...I see it more as the festivals are memorialized as part of the calendar but not reenacted...

 

[iouae]

biblical and in our future I imagine unless there is meat tree in paradise...lol

Folks I know thrive on veggies. On Passover one vegetarian fiend eats lamb only that one night a year, and drinks wine only that one night a year, to comply with the Passover supper.

...good good...however I dont keep Friday sundown but from Sabbath morning to evening...Sabbath Day...

I have never seen that one before. Well you are keeping the most important part. And while you are sleeping, you are resting anyhow so add 6-9 hours to the 12 you keep.

How we keep Holy something made Holy is another thread too...lol

It only serves its purpose if we remember to keep it. The Sabbath is like having mandatory visiting hours with your parents to maintain the relationship.

uh?

What I mean is I have no consistent way of telling anyone which OT laws to keep, since I feel they all still pertain. So I am very arbitrary, not feeling that I am offending God by not wearing tassels etc.

yes...and I add to that the emnity or the “against us” of blood letting do to capital punishment...the eye for an eye laws...we all sin and judgment day coming...of course keep the sheep safe from the criminal goats but that is of course Caesars domain...

Yes Caesar does what the OT laws will do when Christ returns to implement them.
That is why we render to Caesar what is Caesar's.

That being said even the theif in the cross deserved to die for his crime but because of his faith and works what was nailed to the cross next to Him was the consequence of his actions in the afterlife...he did not have to die the second death...THAT is the what is against us the curse..and now in Him we no longer suffer that consequence for breaking the still existing still binding Laws

Yes. In the end, all righteousness is imputed to us by Christ.
And the consequences of sin are removed by Christ, especially the wages of sin being death.

 

[clefty]

Folks I know thrive on veggies. On Passover one vegetarian fiend eats lamb only that one night a year, and drinks wine only that one night a year, to comply with the Passover supper.


I have never seen that one before. Well you are keeping the most important part. And while you are sleeping, you are resting anyhow so add 6-9 hours to the 12 you keep.

Time to update this I guess:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123470-When-does-the-biblical-day-begin

Also of interest:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127270-When-is-the-Sabbath

May He lead...

 

[iouae]

Time to update this I guess:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123470-When-does-the-biblical-day-begin

Also of interest:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127270-When-is-the-Sabbath

May He lead...

Clefty, if keeping half a Sabbath Day floats your boat then go for it.

The references you gave were far to obtuse for me to plough through, and I certainly am not going to change from keeping a 24hr Sabbath.

Here is a scripture showing that Nehemiah closed the city gates at sunset because he considered trading on the full 24 hour Sabbath Day to be a sin.

Nehemiah 13:9
And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, H7676 I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: H7676 and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath H7676 day. H3117

 

[clefty]

Clefty, if keeping half a Sabbath Day floats your boat then go for it.

The references you gave were far to obtuse for me to plough through, and I certainly am not going to change from keeping a 24hr Sabbath.

Here is a scripture showing that Nehemiah closed the city gates at sunset because he considered trading on the full 24 hour Sabbath Day to be a sin.

Nehemiah 13:9
And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, H7676 I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: H7676 and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath H7676 day. H3117

Ok that is a tricky one but it says when “it began to be dark before the sabbath”...read it slowly and realize that according to evening to evening sabbaths believers as it becomes dark it becomes Sabbath NOT a darkness before Sabbath...

They believe it becomes Sabbath as it becomes dark...there is no darkness before the sabbath for them...

But if you believe days begin in the morning there is a night full of darkness before the day...so in this case the gates were closed as they became dark before the Sabbath...that darkness before sabbath is when the gates were closed...so when morning came everything was at rest not getting to rest setting up booths organizing wares settling down for when the Sabbath day began and passed to begin selling again...time is money...even in the OT is why Nehemiah would have to begin closing the gates at noon before all the hustle and bustle of caravans loaded with goods settled in before sunset...but he didn’t he closed the gates as it began to be dark BEFORE the Sabbath...not for the Sabbath

 

[iouae]

Ok that is a tricky one but it says when “it began to be dark before the sabbath”...read it slowly and realize that according to evening to evening sabbaths believers as it becomes dark it becomes Sabbath NOT a darkness before Sabbath...

They believe it becomes Sabbath as it becomes dark...there is no darkness before the sabbath for them...

But if you believe days begin in the morning there is a night full of darkness before the day...so in this case the gates were closed as they became dark before the Sabbath...that darkness before sabbath is when the gates were closed...so when morning came everything was at rest not getting to rest setting up booths organizing wares settling down for when the Sabbath day began and passed to begin selling again...time is money...even in the OT is why Nehemiah would have to begin closing the gates at noon before all the hustle and bustle of caravans loaded with goods settled in before sunset...but he didn’t he closed the gates as it began to be dark BEFORE the Sabbath...not for the Sabbath

You have the obvious Sabbath example of Christ being killed before the start of the Sabbath. The scribes and Pharisees and Jesus' friends were rushing to get him off the cross and into the grave before sunset. Obviously all the Jews crucifying Jesus believed the Sabbath began at sunset. And all counts of Jesus in the grave start at sunset, which was the start of the Sabbath.

 

[clefty]

You have the obvious Sabbath example of Christ being killed before the start of the Sabbath. The scribes and Pharisees and Jesus' friends were rushing to get him off the cross and into the grave before sunset. Obviously all the Jews crucifying Jesus believed the Sabbath began at sunset. And all counts of Jesus in the grave start at sunset, which was the start of the Sabbath.

Let’s not underestimate all that had to happen that evening...especially if before sunset...

Getting an audience with government officers during holidaze is difficult even today...imagine too the hustle and bustle of crowds hurrying to prepare not only for the Sabbath but passover an annual feast where everyone was in town...

http://kingdominfo.net/truth/?p=5

The Day of Preparation Before The Feast of Unleavened Bread

Matthew 27:57-62
Mark 15:42-46
Luke 23:50-54
John 19:38-42

If you are reckoning time from sunset to sunset, it is very difficult to see the flow or harmony between the Torah (law) account of the Passover and the Gospel account of the Messiah Crucifixion on Passover.

Sequence of events:

1. Joseph of Arimathea prepared the body of The Messiah to be buried on the Preparation Day before the Holy Day.

2. John 19:31 (King James Version): The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

He knew that he had to get the body ready for burial as soon as possible on the preparation day (Passover) before the Feast of Unleavened Bread (The Holy Day). Joseph knew that the body of The Messiah could not be left hanging overnight according to the Law or Torah. Take a look at Deuteronomy 21:22-23 & Joshua 10:26-27 .

3. It was already " between the evening" (from 3:00 pm to sunset toward the beginning of darkness or night) on the Day of Preparation (i.e. Wednesday evening) when Joseph requested permission from Pilate to take The Messiah's body (See Matthew 27:57-58; Mark 15:42-43). .

4. Pilate sent a centurion to verify that The Messiah was dead (Mark 15:44-45).

5. Joseph purchased linen strips to wrap the body of The Messiah (Mark 15:46).

6. Joseph returned to the place of the crucifixion to take down the body (Mark 15:46, John 20:27).

7. Nicodemus shows up with approximately 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes to prep the body for burial (John. 19:39, 40).

8. The body of The Messiah was taken to the tomb and a stone was rolled in front of it (Mark. 15:46; John. 19:41).

Remember this: It was already between the evenings when Joseph got permission from Pilate to take the body.

By the time they got the body buried, it would have been at sunset going into the night and the Sabbath (which started the next morning) was drawing near (Luke 23:54).

Luke 23:54 (King James Version)
54 And that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on.

Let's look up the words "drew on"”


...Sabbath began to dawn...

Taking a dead weight body off a cross and carrying it to a tomb and beginning a burial of washing and wrapping is not a 15 min operation...

Don’t mean to derail this thread maybe continue in the other one...?

 

[iouae]

Don’t mean to derail this thread maybe continue in the other one...?

Clefty, Jews have been keeping the Sabbath since forever. They all know it is from sunset to sunset, as the evening and the morning were the first day.

I can see you are passionate about it, and I say "Great for you". You are wrong, but like I said, if it floats your boat, go for it.

 

[chair]

...
Heaven forbid that anyone on this website engage their minds in an actual debate where they realize that no one cares about their personal opinions unless they can substantiate them with sound reason. THAT would be a disaster!

I won't waste my time arguing with someone who thinks there is no such thing as amoral dilemma.

 

[Clete]

I won't waste my time arguing with someone who thinks there is no such thing as amoral dilemma.

Those are your words, not mine. I said that there are not two moral laws that conflict with each other. I never said anything about moral dilemmas not existing. Moral dilemmas have to do with deciding which is the right course of action in a situation where there are no desirable options. Discussing them has to do with more than just the choice but the circumstances that led to that choice having to be made. It's an altogether different discussion than talking about whether a law against murder could conflict with a law against rape or a moral law against disrespecting your parents could conflict with one against envying your neighbor's wife. You will never find yourself having to decide which moral law you have to break. The exception, if there is one, might come as a direct result of having already broken another moral law but I can't even think of an example of that at the moment.

Clete