They do nothing for progress of any kind. If they ever do, I will be the first to announce it and congratulate them.
Trump Tax Reform
- Thread starter patrick jane
- Start date
It IS a tax cut for MOST Americans. The lies are thick here today.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Ok, so you would you be in favor of it, if it really was revenue neutral?
True..
That's for sure, as taxation is theft....you will never agree to that, old habits die hard I guess.
:up:
That's their job I guess.
drbrumley
Well-known member
LOL! By others you mean the government to function....not the person who needs help.
drbrumley
Well-known member
How to think about any given tax reform? Here are four rules:
1) If a bill reduces taxes through lower rates or increased deductions, it should be supported;
2) If a bill increases taxes through raising rates or repealing deductions, it should be opposed;
3) If a bill includes tax increases as well as tax reductions, it’s intellectually incoherent and therefore probably a trick;
4) If a bill promises to reduce taxes and increase revenue, it should be rejected out of hand.
:up:
| https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/2/16720952/senate-tax-bill-inequality The Republican tax bill will exacerbate income inequality in America America’s rich have gotten richer for decades, while the middle class and poor have seen meager gains. Since the mid-20th century, the top 1 percent have more than doubled their share of the nation’s income, from less than 10 percent to more than 20 percent. Donald Trump said he was going fix it — that he would represent the forgotten men and women, the people who had been left behind in this widening of income inequality. But the tax overhaul his Republican Party passed through the Senate early Saturday morning would make America’s income inequality worse. Maybe a lot worse, economists say. |
So you'll congratulate them when they do something that YOU consider to be progress. How generous of you.
Is there anything good in the new taxes?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
No. For too many reasons to go into, but here are some: it lowers the corporate tax rate, which experience shows us doesn't trickle down, and in fact, will probably hurt workers by encouraging more outsourcing. It does this while middle class and lower income wage earners will see little change or even end up paying more. Huge cuts to medicare, medicaid and education. Taxing tuition wavers. Removing the personal exemption. This tax bill is for GOP donors (come on, 6,000+ lobbyists writing legislation?).
Are you planning to collect social security? Have you driven on any roads, highways, interstates lately? Crossed any bridges? Gone to sleep at night expecting U.S. military defenses to intercept any ICBMs?
It's institutional bribery. They spent over 3 billion dollars last year influencing elected representatives. Money talks. Legislators listen.
Sure, depending on who you are. I've been doing some reading and it seems that a lot depends on the medical insurance part of it. Analysis that leaves that part out looks a lot better than the ones that add in people not having insurance and not having the related subsidies.
| http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/454099/senate-tax-reform-would-not-raise-taxes-poor For more than a week now, some media outlets have been running wild with “distributional tables” from the Joint Committee on Taxation and the Congressional Budget Office claiming that — as a CNN headline last night put it, though the story itself was much better — “Poor Americans would lose billions under Senate GOP tax bill.” This is entirely an artifact of how the agencies approach the individual mandate, which the bill repeals. They think a lot of lower-income Americans won’t buy health insurance absent a requirement that they do so, and that as a result these individuals will get less in government subsidies. As Nicole Kaeding of the Tax Foundation put it, “Less of an advanceable refund from the Treasury results in the appearance of a tax increase.” She pointed out that the JCT itself had released a separate table that excluded the effects of repealing the mandate and showed, unsurprisingly, that all income groups got a tax cut. We now have such a table from the CBO as well. Through 2025, after which point the individual tax cuts expire (though they’ll likely be renewed by a future Congress), all income groups see a tax cut. Importantly, the coverage losses from mandate repeal in the CBO’s (and by extension JCT’s) analysis seem to come mainly from people choosing not to buy insurance when they’re not forced to, as opposed to not buying it because premiums went up — though that does play a role too, because the people opting out will be disproportionately healthy. (As Ramesh Ponnuru has pointed out, much of the drop comes from Medicaid, which is essentially free to those who enroll.) It is not a tax increase to stop forcing people to take a government benefit. There are problems with the Senate bill, including that it would add to the deficit, that the expiration of the individual tax cuts is a gimmick designed to make the revenue loss look smaller than it is, that it would increase the number of uninsured (which is problematic even if they choose it), and that it puts the individual health-insurance market at risk. But no, the GOP didn’t somehow manage to write a $1.4 trillion tax cut that raises taxes on the poor in any meaningful sense. Even they’re not that bad at what they do. Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/454099/senate-tax-reform-would-not-raise-taxes-poor |
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybe...s-on-the-middle-class-in-a-few-years-n2414790
Another crucial point is that the fact that those taxpayers who currently take the standard deduction (~70 percent of all filers, a number that will grow substantially) stand to be immediate winners under the bill, as that deduction would approximately double.
drbrumley
Well-known member
well, please dont think I approve of this mess either.
Oh lord, stop with the tired and worn out nonsense. Yes I am planning to collect MY MONEY in SS. I put into it, by god, I am going to take it out if alive. the other parts of your post is nonsensical...like we need the government to do such things..get real. [/QUOTE]
Sure, and until you embrace full liberty and freedom, this will always be the case....
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
You'll get far more from medicare than you put in. Social security used to provide a greater benefit than was paid in, but the scale tipped around 2010. Look at it this way. With the difference, you're helping to take care of the greatest generation in their last years.
So you do use the roads, the bridges, and expect the military to protect you. :thumb:
There is no such thing as full liberty and freedom. Surely you know that by now.
drbrumley
Well-known member
My responsibility is to my parents and family first and foremost....Everything else is charity...which I would be happy to do without a government threat pointed at my head. Surely you know that by now. And the greatest generation put this nation in debt, so there is that.
And I don't recall ever being asked by a governmental official to do such things....
Because you guys are afraid of it...
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I admire your concern for your family. Having taken care of my own, I know it also. We did much that medicare didn't cover, but it was medicare which paid for my dad's hospice. What of the elderly who don't have family to take care of them? Does the state have any responsibility at all for its citizens?
Yet you avail yourself of them. While complaining about the taxes used to make them a reality. Both the infrastructure and the defense. There has to be a middle ground between oppressive taxation and no taxation.
Because it would be anarchy. Because the weak would be trampled beneath the powerful.
Time for everyone on here to get a copy of and thoroughly read Barrett's great bio on Trump and the up and down roller coaster of his times back when he was in New York.
For the new tax law together with his fool deregulations, has basically sent us back to where things headed under Reagan thru Bush II - one heck of a heady booming economy, followed by two of the worst financial meltdowns the unbridled greed and massive corruption those tax reforms and deregulations unleashed on our nation - especially under Reagan, Clinton, and Bush II.
Trump up and down rode that roller coaster of greed and corruption like few - he was that savily corrupt throughout.
But that's the negative about this coming nightmare.
The positive being the massive economic opportunity headed our way - for the wealthy and would be wealthy - in between now and the total collapse it will all result in, when the time comes to pay the multi-TRILLION dollar piper.
At which point the same fools on here clapping their hands in their need to spit on anyone who had tried to warn them, will blame "the Left."
Far too many Trump supporters remain a pathetic bunch; no point in attempting to reason with such - just go out and get your share of the pie while it is still above the water.
And then get out and stay out before this coming hurricane of a "Republican salvation" unleashes its Republican nightmare on us all once more.
"It was the best of times...it was the worst of times..."
For the new tax law together with his fool deregulations, has basically sent us back to where things headed under Reagan thru Bush II - one heck of a heady booming economy, followed by two of the worst financial meltdowns the unbridled greed and massive corruption those tax reforms and deregulations unleashed on our nation - especially under Reagan, Clinton, and Bush II.
Trump up and down rode that roller coaster of greed and corruption like few - he was that savily corrupt throughout.
But that's the negative about this coming nightmare.
The positive being the massive economic opportunity headed our way - for the wealthy and would be wealthy - in between now and the total collapse it will all result in, when the time comes to pay the multi-TRILLION dollar piper.
At which point the same fools on here clapping their hands in their need to spit on anyone who had tried to warn them, will blame "the Left."
Far too many Trump supporters remain a pathetic bunch; no point in attempting to reason with such - just go out and get your share of the pie while it is still above the water.
And then get out and stay out before this coming hurricane of a "Republican salvation" unleashes its Republican nightmare on us all once more.
"It was the best of times...it was the worst of times..."
drbrumley
Well-known member
:up:
this is a much larger question to deal with fully....
My answer is based on principle, no the state has no responsibility. You and I will disagree on this...the state is the one who have made this to what it is. So to ask them to help is throwing gasoline on the fire.
So if taking 100% of a person's income is considered theft, at what % is it no longer theft?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I accept that your answer is based on principle.
How would you frame your answer based not on your ideal but on current reality?
We'd both have to agree that taxes are theft, and that's not going to happen. I'm quite willing to pay a non-oppressive tax for the good of the social compact, for the benefit of our society as a whole. I think most people are willing to pay a reasonable tax for the benefits offered us in return. This is where I have a hard time with the libertarian argument, because while they're arguing that all tax is theft, they're receiving all kinds of benefits of paying taxes that they're not likely to give up.
:down:
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-en...sts-gop-tax-bill-for-allowing-arctic-drilling
Major conservation group blasts GOP tax bill for allowing Arctic drilling: 'Simply shameful'
A major conservation group is blasting the newly passed Senate GOP tax bill for allowing oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), calling the bill “simply shameful.”
“Opening the Arctic to drilling as part of this tax plan is simply shameful. The Arctic Refuge isn’t a bank—drilling there won’t pay for the tax cuts the Senate just passed,” National Audubon Society President and CEO David Yarnold said in a statement Saturday.
“The American people don’t support drilling in the Arctic and it’s up to the House to reject this flawed bill."
The Republican tax bill included a provision to open up a section of ANWR to oil drilling for the first time.
Democrats attempted to stop the provision in a late-night amendment vote, but that effort was shot down by Senate Republicans.
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) argued that the provision would create jobs as well as “protect an environment that as Alaskans we know how to protect.”
The Audubon Society pushed back against that claim, citing dozens of Arctic wildlife scientists who united in opposition to the drilling expansion last week.
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-en...sts-gop-tax-bill-for-allowing-arctic-drilling
Major conservation group blasts GOP tax bill for allowing Arctic drilling: 'Simply shameful'
A major conservation group is blasting the newly passed Senate GOP tax bill for allowing oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), calling the bill “simply shameful.”
“Opening the Arctic to drilling as part of this tax plan is simply shameful. The Arctic Refuge isn’t a bank—drilling there won’t pay for the tax cuts the Senate just passed,” National Audubon Society President and CEO David Yarnold said in a statement Saturday.
“The American people don’t support drilling in the Arctic and it’s up to the House to reject this flawed bill."
The Republican tax bill included a provision to open up a section of ANWR to oil drilling for the first time.
Democrats attempted to stop the provision in a late-night amendment vote, but that effort was shot down by Senate Republicans.
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) argued that the provision would create jobs as well as “protect an environment that as Alaskans we know how to protect.”
The Audubon Society pushed back against that claim, citing dozens of Arctic wildlife scientists who united in opposition to the drilling expansion last week.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Vox’s Matthew Yglesias reminds us that during the campaign, Donald Trump pledged the following: “No tax cut for the rich, no cut to Medicaid, re-imposition of Glass-Steagall, new tariffs on foreign imports, end to carried interest loophole, universal health coverage.”
. . . .
The Senate bill... squeaked through committee Tuesday. It will raise taxes on most people making under $75,000 a year, according to analysis by Congress’s own policy shop. It will eliminate a battery of income tax deductions in order to lower rates for corporations and the very rich.
Senate Republicans are pushing back against this analysis, and against public opinion opposing the bill, by saying tax cuts will spur growth and zero out the $1.5 trillion it would add to the $20 trillion national debt.
To the surprise of no one who has not drunk deeply from the well of misinformation, corporations are signaling the good times are about to get better. Bloomberg reported that they have no plans for investments that would create jobs and boost spending. They plan to further accommodate their already very comfortable shareholders.
But if we paid attention only to the laws Republicans hope to pass, we’d ignore half of what makes the current incarnation of the GOP so insufferable. The president gets all the attention when he attacks democratic process and norms, but we forget these unpopular Republicans are about to ram through an unpopular tax bill with almost no public airing, with almost no deliberation, which is the hallmark on any society worthy of the name “republic.”
Mitch McConnell vowed in 2014 that if the Republicans won control of the Senate, he would lead the way back to “regular order.”
We are going to treat senators with respect — we are going to work harder and accomplish more. The Senate can be returned to the place of great debates, contentious debates, but where you can still get outcomes on things where you have at least 60 Senators.
Yeah, no.
. . . .
The Senate bill... squeaked through committee Tuesday. It will raise taxes on most people making under $75,000 a year, according to analysis by Congress’s own policy shop. It will eliminate a battery of income tax deductions in order to lower rates for corporations and the very rich.
Senate Republicans are pushing back against this analysis, and against public opinion opposing the bill, by saying tax cuts will spur growth and zero out the $1.5 trillion it would add to the $20 trillion national debt.
To the surprise of no one who has not drunk deeply from the well of misinformation, corporations are signaling the good times are about to get better. Bloomberg reported that they have no plans for investments that would create jobs and boost spending. They plan to further accommodate their already very comfortable shareholders.
But if we paid attention only to the laws Republicans hope to pass, we’d ignore half of what makes the current incarnation of the GOP so insufferable. The president gets all the attention when he attacks democratic process and norms, but we forget these unpopular Republicans are about to ram through an unpopular tax bill with almost no public airing, with almost no deliberation, which is the hallmark on any society worthy of the name “republic.”
Mitch McConnell vowed in 2014 that if the Republicans won control of the Senate, he would lead the way back to “regular order.”
We are going to treat senators with respect — we are going to work harder and accomplish more. The Senate can be returned to the place of great debates, contentious debates, but where you can still get outcomes on things where you have at least 60 Senators.
Yeah, no.