Nailed it. Make an emotional decision. Say Obama made you do it. When confronted, pretend you didn't start the mess, but made it all better.
Trump says he won't sign legislation banning separation of children from parents
- Thread starter The Barbarian
- Start date
Nailed it. Make an emotional decision. Say Obama made you do it. When confronted, pretend you didn't start the mess, but made it all better.
lifeisgood
New member
I have seen some who do exactly what you're saying, saying they are not doing it.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
You didn't answer the question. Again. Does your outrage over the cover weigh more heavily on you than the plight of the thousands of children who've been forcibly separated from their parents as a result of Trump's policy? Simple question.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
But you didn't answer the question. Is the father's opinion as valid as yours?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Is that a sort of a sorry-not-sorry way of saying the father is wrong to be proud of his daughter representing thousands of children taken from their parents by the Trump administration?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
No, that's how Trump acted, exactly - but you've got this fixation on Obama that won't let you see it.
As Trump administration policy, border patrol was directed to separation children from their parents, when the uproar began, Trump claimed it was the Democrat's fault, when it was proven that it was his and only his policy which created this grossly inhumane treatment of children, he then signed an executive order to correct the policy that he himself created.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Think about the language of Trump, and Trump's base. The language used, like Trump's use of "infest." The visuals used, like Mike Huckabee's racist tweet.
And then think of this:
Defining the Enemy
One crucial factor in creating a cohesive group is to define who is excluded from membership. Nazi propagandists contributed to the regime's policies by publicly identifying groups for exclusion, inciting hatred or cultivating indifference, and justifying their pariah status to the populace. Nazi propaganda played a crucial role in selling the myth of the “national community” to Germans who longed for unity, national pride and greatness, and a break with the rigid social stratification of the past.
But a second, more sinister aspect of the Nazi myth was that not all Germans were welcome in the new community. Propaganda helped to define who would be excluded from the new society and justified measures against the “outsiders”: Jews, Sinti and Roma (Gypsies), homosexuals, political dissidents, and Germans viewed as genetically inferior and harmful to “national health” (people with mental illness and intellectual or physical disabilities, epileptics, congenitally deaf and blind persons, chronic alcoholics, drug users, and others).
Anti-Jewish Propaganda
Other Outsiders
Identification, Isolation, and Exclusion
Control of Cultural Institutions
And then think of this:
Defining the Enemy
One crucial factor in creating a cohesive group is to define who is excluded from membership. Nazi propagandists contributed to the regime's policies by publicly identifying groups for exclusion, inciting hatred or cultivating indifference, and justifying their pariah status to the populace. Nazi propaganda played a crucial role in selling the myth of the “national community” to Germans who longed for unity, national pride and greatness, and a break with the rigid social stratification of the past.
But a second, more sinister aspect of the Nazi myth was that not all Germans were welcome in the new community. Propaganda helped to define who would be excluded from the new society and justified measures against the “outsiders”: Jews, Sinti and Roma (Gypsies), homosexuals, political dissidents, and Germans viewed as genetically inferior and harmful to “national health” (people with mental illness and intellectual or physical disabilities, epileptics, congenitally deaf and blind persons, chronic alcoholics, drug users, and others).
Anti-Jewish Propaganda
Exploiting pre-existing images and stereotypes, Nazi propagandists portrayed Jews as an “alien race” that fed off the host nation, poisoned its culture, seized its economy, and enslaved its workers and farmers.
This hateful depiction, although neither new nor unique to the Nazi Party, became a state-supported image. As the Nazi regime tightened control over the press and publishing after 1933, propagandists tailored messages to diverse audiences, including the many Germans who were not Nazis and who did not read the party papers.
Public displays of antisemitism in Nazi Germany took a variety of forms, from posters and newspapers to films and radio addresses. Propagandists offered more subtle antisemitic language and viewpoints for educated, middle-class Germans offended by crude caricatures. University professors and religious leaders gave antisemitic themes respectability by incorporating them into their lectures and church sermons.
This hateful depiction, although neither new nor unique to the Nazi Party, became a state-supported image. As the Nazi regime tightened control over the press and publishing after 1933, propagandists tailored messages to diverse audiences, including the many Germans who were not Nazis and who did not read the party papers.
Public displays of antisemitism in Nazi Germany took a variety of forms, from posters and newspapers to films and radio addresses. Propagandists offered more subtle antisemitic language and viewpoints for educated, middle-class Germans offended by crude caricatures. University professors and religious leaders gave antisemitic themes respectability by incorporating them into their lectures and church sermons.
Other Outsiders
Jews were not the only group excluded from the vision of the "national community." Propaganda helped to define who would be excluded from the new society and justified measures against the "outsiders": including Jews, Roma (Gypsies), homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Germans viewed as genetically inferior and harmful to "national health" (people with mental illness and intellectual or physical disabilities, epileptics, congenitally deaf and blind persons, chronic alcoholics, drug users, and others).
Identification, Isolation, and Exclusion
Propaganda also helped lay the groundwork for the announcement of major anti-Jewish statutes at Nuremberg on September 15, 1935. The decrees followed a wave of anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by impatient Nazi Party radicals. The Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor prohibited marriage and extramarital sexual relations between Jews and persons of “German” or “related blood,” and the Reich Citizenship Law defined Jews as “subjects” of the state, a second-class status.
The laws affected some 450,000 “full Jews” (defined as those with four Jewish grandparents and belonging to the Jewish religion), and 250,000 others (including converted Jews and Mischlinge, those with some Jewish parentage), altogether slightly more than one percent of the German population. For months before the announcement of the “Nuremberg Laws,” the Nazi Party press aggressively incited Germans against racial pollution, with the presence of Jews in public swimming pools becoming a major theme.
The laws affected some 450,000 “full Jews” (defined as those with four Jewish grandparents and belonging to the Jewish religion), and 250,000 others (including converted Jews and Mischlinge, those with some Jewish parentage), altogether slightly more than one percent of the German population. For months before the announcement of the “Nuremberg Laws,” the Nazi Party press aggressively incited Germans against racial pollution, with the presence of Jews in public swimming pools becoming a major theme.
Control of Cultural Institutions
Through their control of cultural institutions, such as museums, under the Reich Chamber of Culture, the Nazis created new opportunities to disseminate anti-Jewish propaganda. Most notably, an exhibition entitled “The Eternal Jew” attracted 412,300 visitors, more than 5,000 per day, during its run at the Deutsches Museum in Munich from November 1937 to January 1938. Special performances by the Bavarian State Theater, reiterating the exhibition's antisemitic themes, accompanied the exhibition. The Nazis also associated Jews with “degenerate art,” the subject of a companion exhibition in Munich seen by two million people.
One of the film's most notorious sequences compares Jews to rats that carry contagion, flood the continent, and devour precious resources.
Der ewige Jude is distinctive not only for its crude, vile characterizations made worse with its gruesome footage of a Jewish ritual butcher at work slaughtering cattle, but also for its heavy emphasis on the alien nature of the East European Jew. In one of the film's sequences, “stereotypical” Polish Jews with beards are depicted as shaven clean and transformed into “western-looking” Jews. Such “unmasking” scenes aimed to show German audiences that there was no difference between Jews living in East European ghettos and those inhabiting German neighborhoods.
One of the film's most notorious sequences compares Jews to rats that carry contagion, flood the continent, and devour precious resources.
Der ewige Jude is distinctive not only for its crude, vile characterizations made worse with its gruesome footage of a Jewish ritual butcher at work slaughtering cattle, but also for its heavy emphasis on the alien nature of the East European Jew. In one of the film's sequences, “stereotypical” Polish Jews with beards are depicted as shaven clean and transformed into “western-looking” Jews. Such “unmasking” scenes aimed to show German audiences that there was no difference between Jews living in East European ghettos and those inhabiting German neighborhoods.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Corey Lewandowski Works for PAC That Receives Money from Owner of Immigration Detention Facilities
Lewandowski sad-trombones a Down Syndrome child getting separated from her mother. But come to find out, he’s connected via PAC to an owner of immigration detention facilities.
Among many priority issues on the Congressional plate after Democrats regain control is passing a law that phases out private prisons permanently. The Obama Administration was phasing out their use. This has to be mandated by law on both federal and state level.
I’d argue same should happen with most military contracts. Democrats should argue from stance of national security. I remember during Iraq war, private contractors fed our troops rancid food. Then there are the lawless and uncountable mercenaries like Blackwater. But that’s another story.
Some things shouldn’t be done on a profit-driven basis.
Among many priority issues on the Congressional plate after Democrats regain control is passing a law that phases out private prisons permanently. The Obama Administration was phasing out their use. This has to be mandated by law on both federal and state level.
I’d argue same should happen with most military contracts. Democrats should argue from stance of national security. I remember during Iraq war, private contractors fed our troops rancid food. Then there are the lawless and uncountable mercenaries like Blackwater. But that’s another story.
Some things shouldn’t be done on a profit-driven basis.
Aaron Sankin
Corey Lewandowski, who said "womp womp" on national TV today regarding a 10-year old immigrant girl with Down Syndrome being taken from her mother, works for a PAC that gets donations from a company that owns private immigration detention facilities.
http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/060/201805209112150060/201805209112150060.pdf#navpanes=0
Corey Lewandowski, who said "womp womp" on national TV today regarding a 10-year old immigrant girl with Down Syndrome being taken from her mother, works for a PAC that gets donations from a company that owns private immigration detention facilities.
http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/060/201805209112150060/201805209112150060.pdf#navpanes=0
lifeisgood
New member
I am merely comparing the OUTRAGE of SOME against President Trump vs. President Obama or President Bush or President Clinton for the matter.
President Trump did not create anything, annabenedetti, the mess was already there. He simply shone a light over the mess already going on at the border, looooooong, BEFORE he ever thought about becoming president.
Some have the tendency of putting aside the Flores agreement. Now, President Trump by using his pen (which the Democrats are outraged about it) is going against the Flores agreement (TRANSLATION: President Trump is now going against the law by using his pen).
I wonder how long before the suing because the Flores agreement is not being adhered to will start.
Try to cross to Mexico ILLEGALLY and see how it will go with your children. They will NOT be MIStreated at all contrary to the horrible treatment of illegal children here, right? Have you ever seen how indigenous Mexican children are treated? You should check it out.
I am sure you do not watch Mexican TV. I have.
Mexico should TAKE CARE of their own children first and NOT send them here ILLEGALLY.
Guatemala should TAKE CARE of their own children first and NOT send them here ILLEGALLY.
Honduras should TAKE CARE of their own children first and NOT send them here ILLEGALLY.
Nicaragua should TAKE CARE of their own children first and NOT sent them here ILLEGALLY.
etc., etc., etc.
USA should TAKE CARE of their own children first and NOT send them to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc. ILLEGALLY.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Actually, yes he did. This mess is Trump's creation. You simply won't assign any blame to him, and you've spent post after post wanting to compare one outrage with another as if one could not hold multiple outrages - plus constantly referring back to Obama. Border issues with Mexico are woven through many presidencies, back past even Reagan's amnesty - but a policy of using separation of parent and child as a punitive, inhumane deterrent to border crossers? That's all Trump.
I can see that you honestly and with good intention believe that you've answered my questions. I look at the questions I asked, and then your responses - but they don't look like answers to me. So maybe we should agree to disagree, because there isn't going to be a meeting of the minds on this. I appreciate your taking the time to have the conversation, though. :e4e:
lifeisgood
New member
I know you believe it to be so, however, President Trump did not start this mess, he simply shone the light on it and it came to the surface. He wanted it to be fixed. He wanted Schumer, Pelosi, RINOs, etc. to come to the table and FIX THE PROBLEM instead of shedding crocodile tears.
THEY refused to come to the table and THEY needed a scape goat and President Trump is the closest scape goat available, obviously, and THE NEWS are more than willing and able to help the Resistance because they also do not want to fix the problem, they want to destroy President Trump, his family, his associates, his friends, any one that dare to pronounce his name, etc.
Do you personally remember anyone from the Obama administration being told to get out of a restaurant because they worked for the Obama administration?
Someone is going to do something stupid and you know what the news are going to say? That's President Trump fault and the people who voted for him. The perpetrator will be shown as a 'hero'.
You do remember when the news used to say that President Obama was the 'deporter in chief', right?
Do you, personally, remember any OUTRAGE then for all the deportation and children separation carried out per his orders?
Does anybody really understand the VISCERAL HATE, yes, VISCERAL HATE against this one person and all that has any contact with him? I remember when people talked about the Obamas (many a times unfairly), but I do not remember this VISCERAL HATE against him or any member of his family or government employee asking for them to be harmed PERSONALLY or harming any member of his administration. I do not remember people asking for the death or harming of his children or the asking for his daughters to be put in a cage with pedophiles or his death or calling his wife 'trash'. Do you? (Yes, I know there were things said that were unbecoming and I did not like it then and said so, at that time, and would say so now also, but I do not remember the visceral hate against the Obamas.)
Remember when Rep. Steve Scalise and multiple others were shot in Virginia? Why? VISCERAL HATE. We should check and double check that we do not work from VISCERAL HATE, it is dangerous as you can see when Scalise and others were shot. (Just an example.)
All I am doing is comparison.
You sound so much like Schumer, Pelosi, RINOs, etc.
I wonder how many ILLEGALs Schumer is taking care of at his house at this very moment.
How about Pelosi? RINOs?
Do you know? I would love to find out.
That way you and I could commend Schumer, Pelosi, RINOs, etc. at least for doing something and not simply showing crocodile tears and pens and platitudes, instead of saying he prefer to keep talking about President Trump instead of getting to the table and fixing what he is crocodile tearing about?
How come President Obama built a wall around his home?
How come George Clooney RETURNED to the USA because of security concerns? https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6lor4b/do_as_i_say_not_as_i_dogeorge_clooney_flees_the/
Have you heard Maxime Waters lately: She is calling for people to harm members of the Trump Administration. SOMEONE IS GOING TO DO SOMETHING STUPID and then what? Google it if you think I am lying.
:thumb:
Me too.
lifeisgood
New member
This is NOTHING new, annabenedetti, the only difference is the President in the White House.
How do you think children were transported when separated while in President Obama's watch? Do you think President Obama made them walk? (Don't think so.)
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I'm uninterested in making the fight fairer, if the time comes for an innocent, law abiding, peaceful person, to face a murderer or rapist, or a rabid or otherwise aggressive wild animal. I don't know why anybody would feel differently from me, either. It doesn't make any sense.
How sad that even with the right-leaning media now calling them out, Trump's surrogates are continuing the false narrative of "yabut, Obama did it too!"
No one with any sense is buying it. By now, everyone knows the policy was first planned in 2017, and implemented this year.
And Trump keeps trying to say it's all Obama's fault. Which is at least fun to watch.
Wall Street Journal
WASHINGTON—President Donald Trump directed his administration on Wednesday to try to detain asylum-seeking families together, a reversal after weeks in which he insisted he had no choice but to separate children and adults who cross the border.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald...nd-of-immigrant-family-separations-1529511546
No one with any sense is buying it. By now, everyone knows the policy was first planned in 2017, and implemented this year.
And Trump keeps trying to say it's all Obama's fault. Which is at least fun to watch.
Wall Street Journal
WASHINGTON—President Donald Trump directed his administration on Wednesday to try to detain asylum-seeking families together, a reversal after weeks in which he insisted he had no choice but to separate children and adults who cross the border.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald...nd-of-immigrant-family-separations-1529511546
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Those are some scary looking children!lain:
I know, right? How can any mom not look at those faces and not hurt for them, and for their parents.... and not be disgusted at Trump making dead-eyes Stephen Miller's dream a reality?
Related, I found this by Rin Chupeco and it's sobering:
Speaking as someone born in the last years of a dictatorship, you Americans are already several steps in one.
Ferdinand Marcos' greatest trick was convincing people all protesters were communist animals, so when they went missing, few cared. Even after bodies were discovered.
These white people & journalists talking about being civil? These were the rich people, the Fil-Chinese, the mestizos in the Philippines who knew they won't be affected by many of Marcos' policies, and therefore could ignore them even as the killings started.
Marcos was also adept at convincing regular Filipinos that "as long as you don't commit crimes I won't come for you. I'm only getting rid of the 'filth'." He lied, of course. He jailed his most vocal opponents, people whose businesses he wanted to confiscate for his use.
But Filipinos have always been susceptible to strongman personality cults, just like your Republicans.
(Yeah don't @ me on this one, Repubs still singing Reagan's praises despite the fact he was FRIENDS with Marcos and helped him retain power, making it 1000x worse for us.)
White people, journalists who insist on civility- you seem to think civility is a common ground you share with opponents like Trump et al. Here's a clue - whenever you offer these [redacted] middle ground, they will invade that space & then claim you never gave them ground at all.
Marcos kept pushing. First it was all protesters were communists. All student protesters. Then it was the free press. Then it was the people with businesses he coveted. And then it was anyone who looked at Imelda Marcos or his daughter, Imee, wrong. Arrested, raped, murdered.
And every step of the way there were the same kind of [redacted]wits here twittering on about how people should be civil, SURELY Marcos wouldn't go that far, the economy is flourishing surely it can't be THAT bad.
"It didn't happen to ME, so it must not be bad." up till Martial Law.
White people asking for performative civility do the same thing they did, for the same reason - they're afraid. You've never been raised to fear discrimination or prejudice against a system that has always been built in your favor for centuries.
Your argument for civility is a terrified lashing out against an uncertain future that your ancestors / fellow white people have subjected people of color to for centuries. It's built in POC culture to learn how to cope with this. You've had none, because you've never needed to.
Because regardless of whether you want it or not, status quo benefits white people best. In any upheaval, white people have the least casualties. That makes them the last demographic wanting to rock the boat, even if the boat is full of Nazis steering it straight into Auschwitz.
Because you know Auschwitz isn't going to be for you. It's gonna be Auschwitz for a lot of people in that same boat you're on, but you know that's not for you. And that's why you can afford to be compliant.
And here's the kicker: YOU KNOW THEY'RE NOT CIVIL. That's why it's the liberals you keep appealing to for decorum and politeness. You know you're not going to get most Trumpsters on board anything amounting to basic decency.
So you shift the goalposts, and you enable the gaslighting, even if inadvertently. "Maybe if YOU hadn't been so rude they wouldn't have done that."
[redacted]. You KNOW they'll do it anyway because again, your [redacted] status quo.
People invested in putting kids in cages don't want your civility. They don't want you to extend them the same courtesy they never had - and never wanted - from you. What they want is for you to retreat.
And every ground you grudgingly give, hoping that they'll construe that as some good faith on your part, is only an incentive for them to push harder until you have no ground left.
Then they're going to tell you they've owned the land all along.
"So much for the tolerant left." This is why they say this all the [redacted]ing time. This is the bait they expect you to fall for. Your required "tolerance" for the things they do, even as they do the exact opposite to you.
The first requirement when approaching any discussion with civility is that both sides must come to the table with it. The side that advocates putting kids in cages and are now thinking of stripping citizenship from legal green card holders, never had that to begin with.
Now: if you are REALLY invested in still keeping civil after this, there are countless unaffiliated Red Hen places in the US (+one in Canada) being egged, getting death threats, etc.
Try discussing "civility" with those people this time, & see how well that works out for you.
Ferdinand Marcos' greatest trick was convincing people all protesters were communist animals, so when they went missing, few cared. Even after bodies were discovered.
These white people & journalists talking about being civil? These were the rich people, the Fil-Chinese, the mestizos in the Philippines who knew they won't be affected by many of Marcos' policies, and therefore could ignore them even as the killings started.
Marcos was also adept at convincing regular Filipinos that "as long as you don't commit crimes I won't come for you. I'm only getting rid of the 'filth'." He lied, of course. He jailed his most vocal opponents, people whose businesses he wanted to confiscate for his use.
But Filipinos have always been susceptible to strongman personality cults, just like your Republicans.
(Yeah don't @ me on this one, Repubs still singing Reagan's praises despite the fact he was FRIENDS with Marcos and helped him retain power, making it 1000x worse for us.)
White people, journalists who insist on civility- you seem to think civility is a common ground you share with opponents like Trump et al. Here's a clue - whenever you offer these [redacted] middle ground, they will invade that space & then claim you never gave them ground at all.
Marcos kept pushing. First it was all protesters were communists. All student protesters. Then it was the free press. Then it was the people with businesses he coveted. And then it was anyone who looked at Imelda Marcos or his daughter, Imee, wrong. Arrested, raped, murdered.
And every step of the way there were the same kind of [redacted]wits here twittering on about how people should be civil, SURELY Marcos wouldn't go that far, the economy is flourishing surely it can't be THAT bad.
"It didn't happen to ME, so it must not be bad." up till Martial Law.
White people asking for performative civility do the same thing they did, for the same reason - they're afraid. You've never been raised to fear discrimination or prejudice against a system that has always been built in your favor for centuries.
Your argument for civility is a terrified lashing out against an uncertain future that your ancestors / fellow white people have subjected people of color to for centuries. It's built in POC culture to learn how to cope with this. You've had none, because you've never needed to.
Because regardless of whether you want it or not, status quo benefits white people best. In any upheaval, white people have the least casualties. That makes them the last demographic wanting to rock the boat, even if the boat is full of Nazis steering it straight into Auschwitz.
Because you know Auschwitz isn't going to be for you. It's gonna be Auschwitz for a lot of people in that same boat you're on, but you know that's not for you. And that's why you can afford to be compliant.
And here's the kicker: YOU KNOW THEY'RE NOT CIVIL. That's why it's the liberals you keep appealing to for decorum and politeness. You know you're not going to get most Trumpsters on board anything amounting to basic decency.
So you shift the goalposts, and you enable the gaslighting, even if inadvertently. "Maybe if YOU hadn't been so rude they wouldn't have done that."
[redacted]. You KNOW they'll do it anyway because again, your [redacted] status quo.
People invested in putting kids in cages don't want your civility. They don't want you to extend them the same courtesy they never had - and never wanted - from you. What they want is for you to retreat.
And every ground you grudgingly give, hoping that they'll construe that as some good faith on your part, is only an incentive for them to push harder until you have no ground left.
Then they're going to tell you they've owned the land all along.
"So much for the tolerant left." This is why they say this all the [redacted]ing time. This is the bait they expect you to fall for. Your required "tolerance" for the things they do, even as they do the exact opposite to you.
The first requirement when approaching any discussion with civility is that both sides must come to the table with it. The side that advocates putting kids in cages and are now thinking of stripping citizenship from legal green card holders, never had that to begin with.
Now: if you are REALLY invested in still keeping civil after this, there are countless unaffiliated Red Hen places in the US (+one in Canada) being egged, getting death threats, etc.
Try discussing "civility" with those people this time, & see how well that works out for you.
One evil does not another excuse.
Other than when one is looking out at a thing from within an already skewed, already in place outlook, to begin with.
There is no reasoning...with such.
lifeisgood
New member
So, you are stating that President Obama never separated families? Never deported whole families? Never separated children from their parents? Never responded to the huge rush of UNaccompanied child migrants from Central America by placing them in detaining centers while processing them and figuring out what to do with them?
You are stating that the title he was given as "Deporter in Chief" was unwarranted?
What I really wish is for the ROOT CAUSE to be fixed and if you do not know what the root cause is, then you've got a problem.
lifeisgood
New member
Those are some scary looking children!
Yeah. Same scary looking children when President Obama had to transport UNaccompanied children from the border to processing centers to figure out what to do with them cause no one knew who they were.
lain: