Trinity verse or just Christ?

[Derf]

This came upon another thread and I had to read it a couple times

Poor grammar in scripture.

Does Jesus use bad grammar?

wartburgproject.org

Both of Tambora's posts (this one and the next in the other thread) about this say essentially the same thing, that the phrase "who is, and who was, and who is to come" refers to Jesus Christ. While that is true a few verses later, this particular phrase in this passage seems to refer to someone other than Jesus:
Revelation 1:4-5 KJV — John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

The three persons spoken of are underlined. And if all three are distinct, God the Father, the Spirit of God, and Jesus Christ, then the verse makes sense. If the first phrase talks about Jesus along with the last phrase, it makes the middle phrase confusing.

Here's the later reference. It is a little odd in its structure, too, but most red letter editions assign it to Jesus:

Revelation 1:8 KJV — I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[Tambora]

This came upon another thread and I had to read it a couple times


Both of Tambora's posts (this one and the next in the other thread) about this say essentially the same thing, that the phrase "who is, and who was, and who is to come" refers to Jesus Christ. While that is true a few verses later, this particular phrase in this passage seems to refer to someone other than Jesus:
Revelation 1:4-5 KJV — John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

The three persons spoken of are underlined. And if all three are distinct, God the Father, the Spirit of God, and Jesus Christ, then the verse makes sense. If the first phrase talks about Jesus along with the last phrase, it makes the middle phrase confusing.

Here's the later reference. It is a little odd in its structure, too, but most red letter editions assign it to Jesus:

Revelation 1:8 KJV — I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Things like this have made men scratch their heads for centuries.
Throughout scripture you find many places where the same descriptive words and phrases are used for more than one "person" that describe them as being the one YHWH.

 

[Derf]

Things like this have made men scratch their heads for centuries.
Throughout scripture you find many places where the same descriptive words and phrases are used for more than one "person" that describe them as being the one YHWH.

I agree many are head scratchers, but just focusing on Rev 1:4-5. Here it is again
Revelation 1:4-5 KJV — John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The structure of the sentence indicates that there are three entities from which John is requesting grace for the churches. If the first and third are the same entity, then there are only 2, unless the seven spirits are also a reference to Christ, which is possible, I suppose.

 

[Tambora]

I agree many are head scratchers, but just focusing on Rev 1:4-5. Here it is again
Revelation 1:4-5 KJV — John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The structure of the sentence indicates that there are three entities from which John is requesting grace for the churches. If the first and third are the same entity, then there are only 2, unless the seven spirits are also a reference to Christ, which is possible, I suppose.

John seems to state things that will draw your attention to events from the OT without actually quoting any OT verses.
Scholars notice that John uses more imagery from the OT than any other NT book, and yet doesn't directly quote any OT verse.
Scholars don't hesitate to believe Rev 1:4 is a reference to the "I am the one who is”" statement of the burning bush event.
So if we go to the burning bush event we see the bush having 3 entities (Lord-Father, angel-Son, fire-Holy Spirit).
We can associate fire with the Holy Spirit (tongues of fire at Pentecost, baptized by fire, etc.)

 

[Right Divider]

We can associate fire with the Holy Spirit (tongues of fire at Pentecost, baptized by fire, etc.)

The "baptism of fire" was not about the Holy Spirit. It was about their impending tribulation.

 

[Tambora]

A few of the many fire metaphors:

Isaiah 30
(33) For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.


Deuteronomy 4
(24) For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


Nahum 1
(6) Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.


Isaiah 66:15 ESV
(15) “For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

 

[Derf]

A few of the many fire metaphors:

Isaiah 30
(33) For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.


Deuteronomy 4
(24) For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


Nahum 1
(6) Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.


Isaiah 66:15 ESV
(15) “For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

All of which support @Right Divider's contention.

 

[Tambora]

All of which support @Right Divider's contention.

Tribulation is judgement.
Judgment is issued by YHWH.
YHWH is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
It is YHWH that is the consuming fire.

 

[Right Divider]

Tribulation is judgement.
Judgment is issued by YHWH.
YHWH is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
It is YHWH that is the consuming fire.

Yes, so again you confirm that the "baptism of fire" is not specifically about the Holy Spirit.

 

[Right Divider]

I would also note that Jesus Christ is the one that baptizes with fire.

Luke 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:16) John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

 

[Tambora]

John the Baptist specifically links the Holy Spirit with fire in baptism.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a refining fire and that pattern was shown in the OT and confirmed by the NT.

Zechariah 13​

(9) And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”​

Paul specifically patterns the above with Jews and Gentiles alike in Romans 9.

Malachi 3​

(1) “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.​

(2) But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.​

Patterned to John the Baptist in the NT.




Other verses showing the pattern of the refining fire.

Psalms 66​

(10) For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.​

(11) You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs;​

(12) you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance.​

​

​

1 Peter 1​

(6) In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,​

(7) so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.​

​

1 Corinthians 3​

(15) If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

 

[Right Divider]

John the Baptist specifically links the Holy Spirit with fire in baptism.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a refining fire and that pattern was shown in the OT and confirmed by the NT.

John the baptizer is the one speaking in Luke 3:16. He does NOT equate the Holy Spirit with the baptism with fire. J the B specifically says that Jesus Christ is the one that baptizes with fire.

Zechariah 13

(9) And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”​

Again, there is no specific link between the Holy Spirit and the baptism with fire that John the baptizers says will be performed by Jesus Christ.

Paul specifically patterns the above with Jews and Gentiles alike in Romans 9.

Quote it.

Malachi 3

(1) “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.​

(2) But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.​

Patterned to John the Baptist in the NT.

Note again, the "day of HIS coming" is NOT about the Holy Spirit, but about CHRIST.

Other verses showing the pattern of the refining fire.

Psalms 66​

(10) For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.​

(11) You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs;​

(12) you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance.​

Nothing about the Holy Spirit or baptism there.

1 Peter 1​

(6) In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,​

(7) so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.​

Where is the Holy Spirit mentioned there?

1 Corinthians 3

(15) If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

Where is the Holy Spirit mentioned there? Where is the "baptism with fire" there?

Again, you ignore the clear statement by John the baptizer that it is Jesus Christ that baptizes with fire.

And again I must ask: Why so stubborn?

 

[Tambora]

Matthew 3
(11) “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Acts 11
(15) As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
(16) And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’


John 1
(33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

 

[Right Divider]

Matthew 3
(11) “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Yes, Jesus Christ will be the one baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire; two different baptisms, same baptizer.

Acts 11
(15) As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
(16) And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Yes, Jesus Christ baptized them with the Holy Spirit... just like John the baptizer said would happen. No fire involved here.

John 1
(33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Again. Jesus Christ baptizing with the Holy Spirit... no fire involved here.

 

[Idolater]

Matthew 3
(11) “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Acts 11
(15) As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
(16) And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’


John 1
(33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

And of course ...

Acts 2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Tambora]

And of course ...

Acts 2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Absolutely.
Fire is associated with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit throughout scripture.

One interesting thing that some scholars point out is that the Greek word for "cloven" in verse 3 is diamerizō.
And this is the same word in the Greek OT (Septuagint) in Genesis 10:25 "And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan."

A reference to the dividing into 70 nations at the Tower of Babel when language was also divided.
Pentecost was a reversal of the Tower of Babel in that every man heard what was said no matter what language they understood.

 

[Right Divider]

And of course ...

Acts 2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Your "word search" is so cute.

The "appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire" was not the baptism of fire that John the B talked about.

The baptism of fire never fully took place. It is related to their (Israel's) tribulation (i.e., the time of Jacobs trouble).

 

[Gary K]

I agree many are head scratchers, but just focusing on Rev 1:4-5. Here it is again
Revelation 1:4-5 KJV — John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The structure of the sentence indicates that there are three entities from which John is requesting grace for the churches. If the first and third are the same entity, then there are only 2, unless the seven spirits are also a reference to Christ, which is possible, I suppose.

It's a Hebraism to back up and restate/repeat one's self to emphasize a point. We see this especially in the Psalms.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It's a Hebraism to back up and restate/repeat one's self to emphasize a point. We see this especially in the Psalms.

So Jesus is the one who is, and who was, and who is to come?

 

[Gary K]

So Jesus is the one who is, and who was, and who is to come?

Yes,