I agree with what has been said that intelligence and knowledge give us some evidence. And Faith, yes faith that these things can go so much farther than we've yet experienced within the bounds of our humanity. And I think that God really is in the form of a man because we were created in his image, or the form in which it absolutely matters what we think and feel. Add to this our passions which also make us more like he is, for He is a God of passions. In conclusion, I think it is evident in each one of us that we have a creator. But most of all, don't take for granted that, just as he gives it to us, God has the ability to choose what he does with his knowledge and passions. Of course he always chooses right.
toldailytopic: What are the most persuasive evidences that God exists?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
I agree.
Something exists:
I do. (I am.)
My existence is undeniable.
If anything exists then something must exist necessarily.
I am not a necessary being, because my existence is contingent.
I am either an impossible being, a possible being or a necessary being.
My existence is not impossible.....I do exist.
My existence is only possible.
All possible being is contingent upon something or someone who's existence is necessary....... or nothing would exist.
................................................................................
I agree with the certitude through 'experience' when it is connected to the GOD of the Bible. This uncreated, infinite, personal, omnipotent being could give certainty to His created, finite, personal beings (man) if He so desired.
It is claimed in the Bible that He does:
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
This has been my experience.
................................................................................................
Foremost however, is Paul's declaration in Ro. 1, that man is without excuse with regard to GOD's existence. GOD has shown plainly that He exists, but we choose to suppress that truth and exchange it for a lie. I think that all proofs and persuasions of whatever form are means and subsets of GOD's revelation of Himself to man.
We are without excuse.
John Mortimer
New member
Beautifully put! :thumb:
Four O'Clock
New member
I admit I'm a bit derelict on ratcheting up my philosophy 101 but the argument I've always used (which, unfortunately, won't solve the thread's question) is:
It takes JUST as much 'faith' to believe that the universe's existence came about from NOTHING as it does to believe that the cosmos has a 'mover and shaker' behind things.
But I'm now remembering my childhood when a discussion like this scared the pants off of me!
How could God exist before ALL?
How could ANYTHING exist before anything existed?
As a Christian this still frightens me.
Metaphysics is certainly a persuasion worth conversation over....dinner, sermons, homilies, beer, looking at the stars at night, etc...
If you over think it you can drive yourself nuts...
It takes JUST as much 'faith' to believe that the universe's existence came about from NOTHING as it does to believe that the cosmos has a 'mover and shaker' behind things.
But I'm now remembering my childhood when a discussion like this scared the pants off of me!
How could God exist before ALL?
How could ANYTHING exist before anything existed?
As a Christian this still frightens me.
Metaphysics is certainly a persuasion worth conversation over....dinner, sermons, homilies, beer, looking at the stars at night, etc...
If you over think it you can drive yourself nuts...
If he could introduce himself to me.
That's exactly what it took for me and I think that's the only evidence that can ever matter to the individual...the experiential/relational. Though you don't have to be blind sided by it for that experience to manifest, or so I'm led to believe (yes, intentional...that was for anna).
Paidion
New member
Although it doesn't prove the existence of an omnipotent, omnicient, omnagapāent personal God,t he following is a scientific proof of supernatural creation, which I find persuasive:
Scientific Proof of Supernatural Creation
The efficacy of this proof depends upon the following three premises:
1. The Universe is finite. (Note: "Universe" means the total of all matter and energy that exists.)
2. The first law of thermodynamics holds, i.e. , within a closed system matter (and its equivalent, energy) cannot be created nor destroyed.
3. The second law of thermodynamics holds, i.e., the total energy within a closed system is continuously decreasing in its level of availability. In other words, entropy is increasing within any closed system. (Or in layman's terms, the system is "running down").
Notes on the premises:
1. The first premise in generally accepted within the scientific community. In fact a finite Universe is implied by the widely accepted "big bang" theory. This theory states that all matter and energy existed within a very small volume of space, smaller than a molecule of water, and since that time has been expanding, resulting in the Universe as we know it.
2. The first and second laws of thermodynamics are considered to be the most widely‑accepted generalizations known to science.
The Proof:
1. Since the Universe is finite, it is, itself, a closed system. Thus the first and second laws of thermodynamics apply to it.
2. Either the Universe always existed, or else it came into being (either instantaneously or over a period of time), or it is still coming into being.
3. The idea of the Universe always existing contradicts the third premise. For an infinite amount of time would have passed, plenty of time for entropy to have increased to the extent of inert uniformity. Thus the Universe did not always exist, but had a beginning, or is still coming into being.
4. If the Universe (total of all matter and energy) had a beginning, then its matter and energy couldn't have come into being within itself. For this would contradict premise 2. The same applies if the Universe is still coming into being.
Conclusion: Since the Universe had a beginning, and its matter and energy could not have arisen within itself, then it must have come into it from outside itself, from outside nature itself. That which is outside nature is the Supernatural. Thus the production of matter and energy within the Universe had a Supernatural Source.
Notes: Of course, this conclusion in no way implies the characteristics of the Supernatural Source, whether personal or impersonal, and if personal, whether benign or malignant.
Scientific Proof of Supernatural Creation
The efficacy of this proof depends upon the following three premises:
1. The Universe is finite. (Note: "Universe" means the total of all matter and energy that exists.)
2. The first law of thermodynamics holds, i.e. , within a closed system matter (and its equivalent, energy) cannot be created nor destroyed.
3. The second law of thermodynamics holds, i.e., the total energy within a closed system is continuously decreasing in its level of availability. In other words, entropy is increasing within any closed system. (Or in layman's terms, the system is "running down").
Notes on the premises:
1. The first premise in generally accepted within the scientific community. In fact a finite Universe is implied by the widely accepted "big bang" theory. This theory states that all matter and energy existed within a very small volume of space, smaller than a molecule of water, and since that time has been expanding, resulting in the Universe as we know it.
2. The first and second laws of thermodynamics are considered to be the most widely‑accepted generalizations known to science.
The Proof:
1. Since the Universe is finite, it is, itself, a closed system. Thus the first and second laws of thermodynamics apply to it.
2. Either the Universe always existed, or else it came into being (either instantaneously or over a period of time), or it is still coming into being.
3. The idea of the Universe always existing contradicts the third premise. For an infinite amount of time would have passed, plenty of time for entropy to have increased to the extent of inert uniformity. Thus the Universe did not always exist, but had a beginning, or is still coming into being.
4. If the Universe (total of all matter and energy) had a beginning, then its matter and energy couldn't have come into being within itself. For this would contradict premise 2. The same applies if the Universe is still coming into being.
Conclusion: Since the Universe had a beginning, and its matter and energy could not have arisen within itself, then it must have come into it from outside itself, from outside nature itself. That which is outside nature is the Supernatural. Thus the production of matter and energy within the Universe had a Supernatural Source.
Notes: Of course, this conclusion in no way implies the characteristics of the Supernatural Source, whether personal or impersonal, and if personal, whether benign or malignant.
No, they wouldn't. Read the relevent philosophical texts.
That's not persuasive. That's why the resurrection of Jesus is an article of faith, not a philosophical truth.
It's a historical fact.
It's a contingent historical fact, and it's precisely the sort of claim that non-believers don't believe.
At one point in my life when coming to the end of myself, a sort of disintegration, I spoke out loud facing a wall. I said something like, "Jesus, if you're real..... if you're there.... if you are who you claim to be according to the Bible, then please help me....reveal yourself to me."
Over a short space of time, HE did!
Some idiots don't believe in the Holocaust either.
Besides what He's done in my own life (I survived an abusive childhood; I was a suicidal teenager; I was raped at 19; I went through an abusive marriage and messy divorce; I became a widow at age 30. And, I became a much stonger person than I ever thought would be possible as soon as I realized that I could only make it through my life with God's help.), the birth and life of my daughter. Although I've been going through some tough times with her lately, I know that it will turn around into something beautiful.
Ted L Glines
New member
My soul is a snapshot of God. No autograph required.
What is your soul, and what does it look like? Show me your soul and I'll show you a snapshot of God. That brings us to defining the God concept, and thus will guarantee another few thousand years of hot debate as everyone tries to force their own God concept down everybody else's throat. Ignorance is always adamant. Cheer up. Yelling is great exercise for your vocal chords. You may become an opera star.