toldailytopic: What are the most persuasive evidences that God exists?

Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 9th, 2011 11:53 AM


toldailytopic: What are the most persuasive evidences that God exists?






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Knight made a TOL Daily Topic just for me! :cloud9:

1. The existence of God is self-evident as transcendental, uncreated Truth. Truth itself cannot perish, since were truth to perish, it will have been true that truth perished. But imperishable truth cannot exist in the mind or in created things below the mind, which are mutable. Therefore, it exists immutably above the mind, and we call that God.

See De Libero Arbitrio, De Magistro, and pretty much everything else that St. Augustine wrote.

2. The existence of God is self-evident from our having an Idea of the Good in the mind. Since The Good exceeds our ability to conceive it, it must exist outside of the mind.

See the Proslogium, the Republic, the Parmenides, the Enneads, the Elements of Theology, etc.

3. The existence of God is demonstrable from the existence of contingent reality, although I consider this proof to be of inferior quality than 2. Contingent reality possesses existence as superadded to its essence. Therefore, something must exist whose essence is to be.

See the Summa Theologica, the Elements of Theology, etc.
 

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The most persuasive argument is the argument from religious experience.

I don't consider the above persuasive. Any argument from personal experience can be met with the Sartrean question: "How do you know that it's really from God?"
 

Squishes

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I don't consider the above persuasive. Any argument from personal experience can be met with the Sartrean question: "How do you know that it's really from God?"

I agree, but persuasiveness is merely a psychological measure. How many religious people would consider the arguments in your post the reason they have the religious beliefs they do? Probably a very tiny minority.
 

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I agree, but persuasiveness is merely a psychological measure.

"Persuasiveness" is ambiguous. There's "subjectively persuasive," that is to say, what persuades the mind of the subject, and then there's "objectively persuasive," what in the object lends certitude to the mind. Religious experience may be subjectively persuasive, but it's not objectively so. My arguments may or may not be subjectively persuasive, but I think that they are objectively so.

How many religious people would consider the arguments in your post the reason they have the religious beliefs they do? Probably a very tiny minority.

Probably just me. :noid:
 

Squishes

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"Persuasiveness" is ambiguous. There's "subjectively persuasive," that is to say, what persuades the mind of the subject, and then there's "objectively persuasive," what in the object lends certitude to the mind. Religious experience may be subjectively persuasive, but it's not objectively so. My arguments may or may not be subjectively persuasive, but I think that they are objectively so.

Certitude is psychological as well, and many people would probably claim that religious experience has given them certitude.
 

griffinsavard

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As Paul said....

From the Message Bible

Ignoring God Leads to a Downward Spiral
18-23But God's angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn't treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives. They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.
24-25So God said, in effect, "If that's what you want, that's what you get." It wasn't long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out. And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made them—the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

26-27Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either—women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

28-32Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded. And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face. And they don't care—worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!
 

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Certitude is psychological as well, and many people would probably claim that religious experience has given them certitude.

I disagree with this. I think that certitude has an objective component. If I say "I am certain that my house is on fire," no matter how sure I feel that my house is on fire, if my house is not on fire, then I am not really certain that my house is on fire. Certitude has a necessary correlation to objective reality.
 

Squishes

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I disagree with this. I think that certitude has an objective component. If I say "I am certain that my house is on fire," no matter how sure I feel that my house is on fire, if my house is not on fire, then I am not really certain that my house is on fire. Certitude has a necessary correlation to objective reality.

Then we are just talking past each other, I think. Knowledge has a necessary correlation to reality, but certitude seems to be a psychological phenomena. Typically certitude is a mental state that describes an agent's willingness to bet everything that the belief is true. You could be be willing to bet everything on a false belief, I think.
 

logical1

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 9th, 2011 11:53 AM


toldailytopic: What are the most persuasive evidences that God exists?



i]

nature

the intelligence of man

The Roman Catholic Church -- that teaches the laws (etc) of God
 

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Then we are just talking past each other, I think. Knowledge has a necessary correlation to reality, but certitude seems to be a psychological phenomena. Typically certitude is a mental state that describes an agent's willingness to bet everything that the belief is true. You could be be willing to bet everything on a false belief, I think.

As I said before, the phrasing of the TOL topic is ambiguous. There are two ways that we can understand the question:

1. What is the surest way to make it so that someone will believe in the existence of God?

In that case, the answer is to make sure that the person is raised in a predominately theistic society and throw in some religious experiences for good measure.

2. What evidences of God's existence are most compelling for the rational intellect in this life?

In that case, the answer is as I've described.

Yes?

Of course, the most persuasive evidence of God's existence is the possession of the knowledge that God has of Himself. God doesn't doubt that He exists. The next best thing is the vision of God that the saints in Heaven have. St. Bonaventure doesn't doubt God's existence. He perceives Him directly.
 

kmoney

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The most persuasive argument is the argument from religious experience.

More and more I think that is my answer as well.

The other stuff (moral, scientific, rational arguments) can take you to a certain point but they all fail eventually and I think the experience is what pushes it over the edge.
 

Psalmist

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toldailytopic: What are the most persuasive evidences that God exists?


There are many but these three come to mind first...
The creation of man, who is intricately and wonderfully made.

The orderliness of the planets that is maintained while they spin and orbit the sun.

That man and women could redeemed by God after the fall in the garden.​
 

red cardinal

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 9th, 2011 11:53 AM


toldailytopic: What are the most persuasive evidences that God exists?



The human brain ... eyes ... ears.

Emotions: crying, laughing, anger, grief, joy, happiness, fear, rage.

The ability to love, to hate, and to be indifferent.

The vast number of animal, bird, and fish species ... survival of the fittest ... the fine balance of the food chain.

The beauty of nature and it's innumerable trees and fauna.

A new born baby.

The gentle touch of love.

Compassion, mercy, kindness, justice.

The list is endless and infinite - just like our Creator.
 
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