toldailytopic: What about abortion in cases of rape?

[MaryContrary]

No, I don't feel that a couple weeks after conception it would be a person. Three weeks ago I had a miscarriage. I thought I was 11 weeks along but I had actually miscarried quite early. It was my second and we do not have any children. It can be pretty awful and miserable. It's emotionally and physically painful. I'm hurt and angry. However, I do not feel like I lost a person. I am not as devastated as I would be had I been further along or if heaven forbid, I lost a child to cancer or a car accident. It isn't the same.

Dena, there's no way in the world I'm going to argue this point with you in light of this then. :idunno:

 

[Silent Hunter]

You devalue life, with no reasonable basis, for no other purpose than to justify ending it.

He did no such thing.

You look to things beyond the child's control and, in fact, beyond the child entirely, to determine the value of that child's life.

The "child's" life isn't the only consideration here and he has made that quite plain.

Pick any attempted genocide in history. They all did exactly what you do here to justify their actions.

No, they didn't. Perhaps one comes to mind but many genocides have happened to wipe out entire groups of people without regard to if they were "persons" or not. Your deity takes responsibility for quite a few genocides if you take the OT at its word. Was the justification as you accuse Alate?

 

[MaryContrary]

I never really understand this debate, to be honest.

If you don't believe a zygote/early foetus is a person, then it makes no difference whether the pregnancy was caused by rape or not.

If you believe a zygote/early foetus is a person, then killing it is surely murder, and it should make no difference whether the pregnancy was caused by rape or not.

I am interested by, but do not understand, Alate_One's position.

I think Alate understands that quite perfectly. From what I see he's willing to murder unborn children conceived in rape. He'll tell you all day long that it isn't murder, rather merely killing, but even that because he denies any right to life for those children solely because their parents were rapists and their mothers didn't want them.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Sorry, but you can't get away with twisting what "killed for their parent's sin" means. That means the child is guilty of their parent's sins and killed for that guilt. You don't show that anywhere in any verse you've thrown out yet. Because there is no scripture to support that warped notion. Quite the opposite. I've shown where that idea is specifically condemned.

All you've established is that God has killed. That He's even killed children and the elderly. Even the unborn. Which matters not at all because the question isn't whether God can abort in the case of rape but rather whether or not we can.

We cannot. That's murder.

It is rather amusing to me that your deity can make the rules then break them on a whim. It is no wonder I don't believe your deity exists.

 

[MaryContrary]

He did no such thing.

The "child's" life isn't the only consideration here and he has made that quite plain.

The value of a person's life is not based upon whether or not their fathers were rapists. This is one factor Alate determines the value of that unborn child upon. He's said that quite plainly. That and the mother not wanting them, which again has nothing to do with the value of that child's life.

No, they didn't. Perhaps one comes to mind but many genocides have happened to wipe out entire groups of people without regard to if they were "persons" or not.

No, I'm going to challenge you on that. In the vast majority of such cases the guilty party is quite clearly seen making great effort to devalue, unfairly, the lives of those they assault. That's always been part of this because the vast majority of human beings, such as those in the armies and among the people of these groups, do care whether someone else has the right to live. To get whole groups motivated to go out and commit genocide you almost have to devalue those lives first.

This is exactly what Alate does.

Your deity takes responsibility for quite a few genocides if you take the OT at its word. Was the justification as you accuse Alate?

No. He has the right, the authority and the capability to make all the determinations necessary. We don't. God is not a human being and is in rather a unique position. Pointing to Him as an example in this situation just doesn't fit.

 

[Silent Hunter]

I think Alate understands that quite perfectly. From what I see he's willing to murder unborn children conceived in rape. He'll tell you all day long that it isn't murder, rather merely killing, but even that because he denies any right to life for those children solely because their parents were rapists and their mothers didn't want them.

So, what is wrong with that . . . other than that you object?

 

[MaryContrary]

It is rather amusing to me that your deity can make the rules then break them on a whim. It is no wonder I don't believe your deity exists.

Nothing to do with the topic. If you have no argument, then don't argue. Not going to waste my time with an irrelevant point. Go start another thread if you really want an answer to this.

 

[MaryContrary]

So, what is wrong with that . . . other than that you object?

Are you serious?

That human life has no value but what we assign to it? And that this can be determined based on things having nothing at all to do with that individual life?

You need to actually think about that for a minute.

 

[PureX]

Would it really matter how she was conceived?

Sienna

 

[Silent Hunter]

The value of a person's life is not based upon whether or not their fathers were rapists.

The unborn aren't "persons" in the usual sense. Until this is resolved your argument is just your word against his.

This is one factor Alate determines the value of that unborn child upon. He's said that quite plainly. That and the mother not wanting them, which again has nothing to do with the value of that child's life.

What child?

No, I'm going to challenge you on that. In the vast majority of such cases the guilty party is quite clearly seen making great effort to devalue, unfairly, the lives of those they assault. That's always been part of this because the vast majority of human beings, such as those in the armies and among the people of these groups, do care whether someone else has the right to live. To get whole groups motivated to go out and commit genocide you almost have to devalue those lives first.

War is hell . . . as they say.

This is exactly what Alate does.

Does?

No. He has the right, the authority and the capability to make all the determinations necessary. We don't. God is not a human being and is in rather a unique position. Pointing to Him as an example in this situation just doesn't fit.

It does in my opinion . . . which is the only opinion I happen to agree with in this regard.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Nothing to do with the topic. If you have no argument, then don't argue. Not going to waste my time with an irrelevant point. Go start another thread if you really want an answer to this.

Quite clearly part of the topic since you brought it up. Don't go yelling foul when you can't defend your point.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Are you serious?

Yep. Your disagreement is without merit in my opinion.

That human life has no value but what we assign to it?

Exactly! You said yourself that humans assign value to life as the situation dictates.

And that this can be determined based on things having nothing at all to do with that individual life?

War is hell . . . or so I'm told.

You need to actually think about that for a minute.

Been there . . . done that.

 

[Christ's Word]

The "save the whales" but "kill your unborn baby" crowd is so depraved and morally bankrupt, time is likely better spent with those that can be helped to some small degree. God will give certain evil doers over to their own depravity, seen it over and over again.

 

[Silent Hunter]

The "save the whales" but "kill your unborn baby" crowd is so depraved and morally bankrupt, time is likely better spent with those that can be helped to some small degree.

Humans are hardly in danger of extinction.

God will give certain evil doers over to their own depravity, seen it over and over again.

This is simply a religious platitude and of no worth to the discussion.

 

[MaryContrary]

The unborn aren't "persons" in the usual sense. Until this is resolved your argument is just your word against his.

You, like he, still refuse to acknowledge the unborn as persons then. Calling them "persons, not in the usual sense of the word" doesn't qualify. That's still not a person, in that it has an inherent right to life. In that its life has inherent value.

You yourself pointed out earlier that the central conflict here is whether or not the unborn are persons. This skirts that issue quite dishonestly, in pretending to address it. Alate did it and now you do it. In both cases you do it only so that you can pretend reason while denying right to life.

Quite clearly part of the topic since you brought it up. Don't go yelling foul when you can't defend your point.

Part of the discussion with Butterfly. Not going to waste my time having that discussion with you.

Exactly! You said yourself that humans assign value to life as the situation dictates.

Yes, I said that...in the context that it was evil and wrong to do so! :doh:

There is inherent value in human life, in "personhood". There is an inherent right to life as well. In both cases, you cannot deny that or you undermine all appeal to value or right for all life. That is what Alate, and apparently you, are willing to do in order to defend abortion in this case.

 

[Silent Hunter]

You, like he, still refuse to acknowledge the unborn as persons then. Calling them "persons, not in the usual sense of the word" doesn't qualify. That's still not a person, in that it has an inherent right to life.

That would be because . . . a few cells in a puddle of water hardly qualifies as a "person" in ANY sense of ANY word (or phrase).

In that its life has inherent value.

According to whom?

You yourself pointed out earlier that the central conflict here is whether or not the unborn are persons. This skirts that issue quite dishonestly, in pretending to address it.

Dishonest? Hardly. The central issue is is a few cells in a puddle of water a person . . . period. Prove it . . . your argument depends on it.

Alate did it and now you do it. In both cases you do it only so that you can pretend reason while denying right to life.

Neither Alate nor I deny "right to life" to a person. Prove a few cells in a puddle of water is a person.

Part of the discussion with Butterfly. Not going to waste my time having that discussion with you.Yes, I said that...in the context that it was evil and wrong to do so!

First you admit it . . . then you deny it . . . make up your . . . mind.

There is inherent value in human life, in "personhood".

I agree.

There is an inherent right to life as well.

In all cases?

In both cases, you cannot deny that or you undermine all appeal to value or right for all life.

Not true but thank you for stating your opinion.

That is what Alate, and apparently you, are willing to do in order to defend abortion in this case.

Not true.

 

[surrender]

I believe I would choose to have MY baby. What other women choose is between them and God. However, I would never choose to legalize the killing of an unborn child.

 

[MaryContrary]

I believe I would choose to have MY baby. What other women choose is between them and God. However, I would never choose to legalize the killing of an unborn child.

:up: Same.

 

[surrender]

I didn't expect to be commenting so soon (intending to read along) but I don't think early term abortion (morning after pill or similar within first tri) is murder. Nothing says "adding insult to injury" like having to raise your rapist's child.

You wouldn't have to raise your baby. You could put him/her up for adoption. Many babies are born from date rape situations, and many of them are adopted out.

 

[MaryContrary]

You wouldn't have to raise your baby. You could put him/her up for adoption. Many babies are born from date rape situations, and many of them are adopted out.

Just one of many abortion survivors

And this wonderful lady. Rebecca Kiessling, Family Law Attorney, Conceived in Rape, Abortion Survivor

https://www.facebook.com/rebecca.kiessling.7