toldailytopic: US House of Representatives pass Obama-care.

[serpentdove]

[sarcasm]THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! [/sarcasm]

He said he was going to do this when he was running for president. He was overwhelmingly elected. What did you think would happen?

Being overwhelmingly elected does not make it right (Ex 23:2). This was not a bipartisan effort. It was solely social Democrats. :Commie:

 

[Alate_One]

People have the right to be left alone.

No, they don't actually. Not when people expect to get something for nothing ALREADY.

Leftists spread misery not wealth and good care. The reason social Democrats get votes is because they promise hand outs. Government has no money that it did not first take from another person. A man has the right to keep the fruits of his labor. What they call "social justice" we call theft (Ex 20:15). :Commie:

Taxes are not theft, as TH already pointed out so clearly. Even Jesus paid taxes. "Lefitsts" do not spread anything more damaging than "rightists". Deregulators would allow companies to spread toxins all over the land in the name of "investment". Not to mention the recent economic meltdown, again caused by greed combined with too little regulation.

The problem with healthcare is people EXPECT to be able to show up to a hospital and be treated whether they can pay or not. And the laws are such that they MUST be treated, at least if they are in danger of dying.

All the mandate does is ask that people actually PAY for said treatment instead of defaulting which is what they do all too often these days making hospitals on edge and increasing costs for the rest of us.

The real question is why do you have the right to steal from me by passing on the costs of your care because you want to exercise your "freedom" to not buy health insurance?

But all of this is a moot point. The bill is passed, deal with it.

 

[Alate_One]

Being overwhelmingly elected does not make it right (Ex 23:2). This was not a bipartisan effort. It was solely social Democrats. :Commie:

Its a democracy, those that win have the responsibility to govern. The Republicans decided early on not to be part of the process but to say no to everything. Obama would have loved to have had their votes, but in the end there would be no participation from the right no matter what.

But the calculation didn't pay off. The right lost and chose not to be part of the solution.

This may be far more of a problem for republicans than democrats.

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat. There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

From Republican David Frum's blog post linked above.

 

[drbrumley]

Taxes are not theft, as TH already pointed out so clearly. Even Jesus paid taxes.

Taxes are theft. Plain and simple. And to bring Jesus into the discussion that he paid taxes, I say prove it.

 

[serpentdove]

"It's a democracy, those that win have the responsibility to govern."

We are a representative republic.

"The Republicans decided early on not to be part of the process but to say no to everything."

The Republicans had an alternate plan. The social Democrats did this on their own. Nearly 80% of the people were against it.

"...in the end there would be no participation from the right no matter what."

The right participated but their ideas were rejected. Tyranny and oppression is nothing new. Compare Obama to Nimrod:

"Nimrod founded Babylon. He realized if the people would look to the government, they would no longer look to God (Enyart)."

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” –Margaret Thatcher

See:

Beware of Leftists

"The right lost and chose not to be part of the solution."

We all loose when we do not hold back the tyrannical forces of the left (Eccl 10:2). When you reject God and his law (Ex 20:15), you loose your country. The left is about equality. :Commie: The right is about liberty. :FrankiE:

 

[drbrumley]

Another right wing lie. A "Boehner faced lie," if you will.

Anyone can run a not for profit and take home 10 million a week. Profit has nothing to do with how the money is spent.

I think this bill forces insurance companies to apply a percentage of revenues to actual claims, I think I heard 85% but I could be wrong.

I agree with Ktoyou, they're a bunch of pigs, but at least this attempts to keep them in a pen.

Did you say something?

 

[BabyChristian]

A couple of uncalled for remarks, BC. RRRwhatever's comment was useless, and yours is a sweeping, accusatory generalization.

Case in point: me. I'm a hard working graduate student who is about to enter the work force. I am by no means a welfare recipient, but I really will benefit from certain provisions within this bill. I've been draining my bank account for the last year living in the states by purchasing only catastrophic health insurance (which is a necessity in my field), and I'm pretty much down to nothing. Among other things, this bill will allow me to remain on my parents insurance policy for another 2 years! That's going to save me a lot of money. Once I have income, however, I will have no problem allocating some of it to providing benefits to people who are in my current position.

Not to be overly confrontational, BC, but what do you do for a living? Do you personally pay for your health insurance? Have you ever been in a situation where you couldn't afford health insurance?

Welcome to the world I lived in where I was responsible for my education and everything else.

Entitlements. I wouldn't be too proud if I were you to accept it since it's taking money away from other people, like me and no one has asked my permission. That's stealing. How dare you steal from me to better your own life when we have paid for everything ourselves.

We paid for my sons to go to college and if we hadn't, there's many that pay their way without largesse given to them from the public treasury.

When I keep hearing the phrase, "GIVE BACK" I keep thinking, "When did I ever get anything?"

We are paying taxes for children to be educated but my grand daughter won't be attending public schools, yet we have to pay for it regardless.

To answer this question: "What do you do for a living? Do you personally pay for your health insurance? Have you ever been in a situation where you couldn't afford health insurance?"

We own a commercial electrical contracting company. Yes we pay for health insurance. Yes I have been in a situation where I couldn't afford health insurance but I quit smoking at that time (when I was single), didn't have an iphone, (they weren't around then but you get my drift) $150 tennis shoes and all of those things, so I could afford the necessity of insurance. I had to make a choice.

I consider this theft and the majority of Americans were against it yet the will of the majority was ignored and people like you are happy to take a hand-out. Of course, the recipients will be thrilled. We not only will not be recipients since we're business owners, we will be paying a larger portion of taxes to help those that won't do what we did when we were younger.

When we bought our business, my husband worked 12 hour days, 7 days per week for the first 8 years we owned our business.

We are not like these youngsters in Hollyweird that made a million in a year, we worked out butts off to get where we are so we don't have the guilt mentality that those liberals have.

Your (or your parents) lack of prior planning is not our fault and does not constitute an emergency on our part.

 

[serpentdove]

[People have the right to be left alone.] "No, they don't actually. Not when people expect to get something for nothing already."

People expect to take what is not theirs. That does not mean it is right (Ex 23:2). It's called theft (Ex 20:15).

Again, the left is about equality (a European value). :Commie: The right is about liberty (an American value). :FrankiE:

We were founded as a Judeo-Christian nation. This is why only Christians should lead. Next time we should vote for the American.

John Jay: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."* John Jay, one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York).* He wrote, in a private letter (1797) to clergyman Jedidiah Morse).

"Taxes are not theft..."

Biblically, any tax over 10% is highway robbery. God gave the tithe which was ten percent and even that was voluntary (1Sa 8:15,17). Men rejected God's merciful rule and reign in favor of kings (1 Sam. 8:5, 6). Luckily, that will all be fixed one day (Re 1:7). Man cannot rule and reign. We see this.

"Deregulators would allow companies to spread toxins all over the land in the name of "investment"."

Just because we do not worship the planet, it does not mean that we believe man should destroy his environment. We believe that man should be a good steward of the plant.

We conservatives work so you don't have to (Prov. 21:20).

"The problem with healthcare is people expect to be able to show up to a hospital and be treated whether they can pay or not."

People expect all kinds of things. That does not entitle them to steal from others (Ex 20:15).

"...all of this is a moot point. The bill is passed, deal with it."

Roll over and die? :dead:

No , we will continue to fight leftists. Their policies are godless and dangerous. :Commie: States will assert their rights. The law is unconstitutional and we will work to repeal it.

 

[Town Heretic]

Taxes are theft.

No. Theft is the unlawful taking of another man's goods. The lawful part is decided by the civil authority and your goods are that which you have an unencumbered right to possess.

And to bring Jesus into the discussion that he paid taxes, I say prove it.

Seriously, DR? What was Jesus looking at when he said render unto Caesar? The sort of coin used to pay the Roman poll tax. The coin is Caesar's and his tax is your obligation. Was there a common purse for Jesus and his men? Would Jesus do as he said or not? Would he return to Caesar that which was Caesar's?

Welcome to the world I lived in where I was responsible for my education and everything else.

Entitlements. I wouldn't be too proud if I were you to accept it since it's taking money away from other people, like me and no one has asked my permission. That's stealing.

Nope. (see above)

How dare you steal from me to better your own life when we have paid for everything ourselves.

I can't wait to see the roads you paved and paid for, the hospitals you built and paid for, etc...just silly. Did you go to privately funded schools?

When I keep hearing the phrase, "GIVE BACK" I keep thinking, "When did I ever get anything?"

Every day of your life.

We are paying taxes for children to be educated but my grand daughter won't be attending public schools, yet we have to pay for it regardless.

And the Amish have to pay for bombers. Go figure.

I consider this theft and the majority of Americans were against it yet

Actually, no. Around 13% felt opposed the bill for not going far enough. A strong MINORITY were actually opposed to health care reform being a government bit of business. Republicans keep misrepresenting this for some reason.

:e4e:

 

[drbrumley]

No. Theft is the unlawful taking of another man's goods. The lawful part is decided by the civil authority and your goods are that which you have an unencumbered right to possess.

Did I agree, sign a paper, anything to say I should be taxed? Does the US Constitution have my name on it?

Seriously, DR? What was Jesus looking at when he said render unto Caesar? The sort of coin used to pay the Roman poll tax. The coin is Caesar's and his tax is your obligation. Was there a common purse for Jesus and his men? Would Jesus do as he said or not? Would he return to Caesar that which was Caesar's?

I can imagine you there when this happened and you saying yeah I need to run and pay my taxes now!!!! Silly goose! This event your citing is the most misused verse in scripture. This verse does not nor ever has endorsed taxation.

 

[Town Heretic]

Did I agree, sign a paper, anything to say I should be taxed? Does the US Constitution have my name on it?

Your consent isn't required nor is it a part of what constitutes the definition. Do you think the fellows on death row just felt like lining up for an injection one day?

I can imagine you there when this happened and you saying yeah I need to run and pay my taxes now!!!! Silly goose!

Well, I frequently am, but that's another matter altogether.

This event your citing is the most misused verse in scripture. This verse does not nor ever has endorsed taxation.

Sure seems to, your declaration notwithstanding. It tacitly endorses the authority of the secular government over its business...and that's without Romans thrown into the mix.

Any truth to the rumor Knight is planning on changing the name of this thread to Meet drbrumley?

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Is it possible that the SCOTUS can overturn this, based on lawsuits filed by the states?

 

[drbrumley]

Is it possible that the SCOTUS can overturn this, based on lawsuits filed by the states?

Extremely doubtful. That battle, as TomO mentioned earlier, ended in the Civil War.

 

[drbrumley]

Gary North nails it

Gary North nails it

Gary North nails it (Scary indeed)

OBAMACARE

This brings me to the other subject: the health care law. It is not law yet, but it soon will be.

I know what is going to happen.

1. Cost overruns
2. Fraud
3. Additional coverage extended to groups
4. Rising deficits in the program
5. Lower payments to physicians
6. Lower payments to hospitals
7. Delays in payments
8. Rising taxes on the rich
9. Rationing by doctors, hospitals, government
10. Delays in treatment
11. More HMO care: assembly line medicine
12. A search for scapegoats

In 1977, I was involved in an early warning operation. Three teams of physicians and economists toured the country. We hit 30 cities in two weeks. We warned physicians in poorly attended meetings that something like Obamacare was coming. It has now arrived. The physicians we spoke to are mostly retired. They saw some of this happen on a minor scale, but they escaped.

I spoke about the percentage of the GDP (then GNP) devoted to heath care: about 7%. Today, it is 15%. Medicare and Medicaid have increased costs. The care is no better. Except for technology, it is arguably worse.

Obamacare will lead to an expansion of these forms of medicine:

1. Concierge
2. Wal-Mart
3. ER
4. HMO
5. Mexican

CONCIERGE. The rich and very rich hire their own physicians. They pay top dollar. The physicians do not take third-party payments, either from the government or insurance companies. They are independent practitioners. They make house calls. The houses they call on are very large.


For the upper middle class, there are fee-for-service physicians. They take no third-party payments. They do not make house calls.

WAL-MART. These are the walk-in clinics. They are price competitive. They treat minor ailments. They sell services on a one-time basis. They take credit cards. They may or may not cater to the Medicare crowd. They are assembly-line clinics. There are no major surgeries or other high-cost, high-risk services.

ER. Large hospital emergency rooms are mandated by law. The poor get treated there. In a life-and-death emergency, they work. People who would otherwise die in a couple of hours are saved. For walk-in patients, the ERs ration by time. Patients demonstrate their patience.

HMO. This style of medicine is efficient. It cuts costs by cutting services and cutting time. You see the physician on duty. You may not have seen him before. His job is to get you in and out as fast as possible. Time is monitored by the company. Computers make this easy.

MEXICAN. This is off-shore medicine. In Canada, when you can't get treated for months or years, you come to the United States and pay. This will not be possible for Canadians much longer, except for rich ones. Mexico will serve upper middle-class Americans as the USA has served Canadians.

It is possible to get very good surgical care in Asia and Latin America. You have to know who the good practitioners are. Asian hospitals sell for 25% the same level of services. There is less regulation there. Plane fares are cheap. A stay in a hotel is cheap.

There will be entrepreneurs who set up Websites off-shore that direct Americans to practitioners abroad. The Web allows this sort of advertising.

Physicians who practice alone or in small limited liability corporations will find that they cannot compete under the new payment system. Assembly-line medicine will replace the traditional doctor-patient relationship.

TRAPPED

Most physicians are trapped. They cannot sell their practices. The price of practices has been dropping.


Foreign-trained physicians who can pass the U.S. tests are coming to America. They are competitive.

Technical Services that can be digitized are being outsourced to India and other Asian nations.

Young American physicians begin with a lot of debt. They need income fast. They will be hired by the HMOs and clinics. They will not reach the salary level of this generation of physicians. They will be upper-middle-class income-earners.

There will be specialists, of course. Plastic surgeons who specialize in making rich women better looking will not be part of the new system. They will be able to do well. But for the typical practitioner, his career options have been dramatically restricted by the new law.

I think most physicians will stick it out until they retire at age 67. They owe money. They need the income. The law's most restrictive provisions will not kick in until 2014. They will adjust.

Residents of Detroit also adjusted. Then, without warning, the economy changed. Those who were still living in the city saw their capital disappear.

People put up with the devils they know. They do not look for a lifeboat when they hear the ship scrape the iceberg. They assume that it will be business as usual.

Then, one fine day, it isn't.

CONCLUSION

You had better decide which kind of medical care you can live with. Then you had better locate a practitioner soon. This is especially true if you want a fee-for-service physician. People with money will go to them. They are already hard to find. They charge more. It's not easy to become a patient. They are booked up.

If you have an existing physician, do what you can to become an above-average patient.

You had better start getting into shape. You can no longer afford to be vulnerable to the diseases and afflictions of a flabby lifestyle. ObamaCare has changed the risk-reward ratio. Risk has just gone up. It will continue to go up.

There will be no roll-back of this law. It is going to be enforced for as long as the U.S. government has money.

That may not be as long as Obama thinks.​

And thanks to Townie and Alate for their support of this bill, coming to you soon.

 

[Granite]

Well with due respect North has been known to overreact in the past, to say the least (Fighting Chance and y2k come to mind). That said, he's usually on to something.

So for those of us with existing coverage, and physicians/practitioners currently, what should we anticipate? That our current medical practitioners will eventually be squeezed out of business? That if we're not sick often enough they'll drop us as patients?

 

[drbrumley]

Well with due respect North has been known to overreact in the past, to say the least (Fighting Chance and y2k come to mind). That said, he's usually on to something.

So for those of us with existing coverage, and physicians/practitioners currently, what should we anticipate? That our current medical practitioners will eventually be squeezed out of business? That if we're not sick often enough they'll drop us as patients?

Could be, providing we get thru the premium increases this will suely bring upon us. I really for the life of can't see my employer paying for my insurance anymore.

 

[BabyChristian]

No. Theft is the unlawful taking of another man's goods. The lawful part is decided by the civil authority and your goods are that which you have an unencumbered right to possess.

Seriously, DR? What was Jesus looking at when he said render unto Caesar? The sort of coin used to pay the Roman poll tax. The coin is Caesar's and his tax is your obligation. Was there a common purse for Jesus and his men? Would Jesus do as he said or not? Would he return to Caesar that which was Caesar's?


Nope. (see above)

I can't wait to see the roads you paved and paid for, the hospitals you built and paid for, etc...just silly. Did you go to privately funded schools?

I don't think you really want an answer for that because that would be tooting my own horn and I'd be asking you how crow tastes?



And the Amish have to pay for bombers. Go figure.

And I remember a time that you told me those tea partiers were nothing but a bunch of people being paid to do what they were doing and you were so wrong and it was proven by the elections, Massachusetts and the others. I asked you when that happened, who paid for all of those people to vote the opposite way they've been voting forever?

You accuse me of being so right-wing I can't walk normal or some stupid thing but the same could be said about you.

Actually, no. Around 13% felt opposed the bill for not going far enough. A strong MINORITY were actually opposed to health care reform being a government bit of business. Republicans keep misrepresenting this for some reason.

:e4e:

Hey TH, I saw you viewing this thread when I posted and I knew you'd address me.

In our family we practice what we preach and put our money where our mouth is.

My husband and I are NOT members of the AARP and we also do not plan to take money from medicare when we retire nor collect the money we put in for retirement since we won't need it.

My schizophrenic son is 100% living in a house we own at our expense. He could be collecting SSI but isn't. We pay for EVERYTHING for him. He's our responsibility, not the rest of the USAs.

Also, when my twin sister was in a financial bind, instead of her getting govt. help, my family (mother and siblings) gave her a total of $60,000 in increments.

I think family should take care of family and if they can't because they're financially strapped, well often I have seen it's entirely their fault the way they live their lives.

Yet I know a few, which I've mentioned before that don't need it and live off it or some form of welfare and they're suckers, leeches and they make me so sick.

You know how radical I am about this and I've kept my cool pretty much.

The majority of the USA didn't want this, this happened anyway.

I don't see how you can defend the indefensible, they're suppose to do what the majority of us (THE REAL GOVERNMENT) wants done.

Obama wants to go down in history as the man that got it done and I seriously fear America is going to go down the tubes in so many ways due to this but by golly, so what?

I was for health care reform, some things needed to be changed but this went too far almost as far as was possible.

As far as the Caesar part you mentioned, I know Christ wouldn't want abortions paid for with Christian's taxes and I don't care what executive order was signed, it's not worth the piece of paper that was signed.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

My schizophrenic son is 100% living in a house we own at our expense.

Are you serious?

 

[BabyChristian]

No. Theft is the unlawful taking of another man's goods. The lawful part is decided by the civil authority and your goods are that which you have an unencumbered right to possess.

Seriously, DR? What was Jesus looking at when he said render unto Caesar? The sort of coin used to pay the Roman poll tax. The coin is Caesar's and his tax is your obligation. Was there a common purse for Jesus and his men? Would Jesus do as he said or not? Would he return to Caesar that which was Caesar's?


Nope. (see above)

I can't wait to see the roads you paved and paid for, the hospitals you built and paid for, etc...just silly. Did you go to privately funded schools?

And the Amish have to pay for bombers. Go figure.

Yup, if they want to live in this scary and warring world and survive. I object to many things about how far I see this healthcare being taken advantage of, the same as there's fraud in any federal govt. ran program.

How can anyone, that's a thinking person, believe that the federal govt. can run this at all without bankrupting the USA?

This healthcare was tried in Massachusetts and it is failing. Shouldn't someone be paying attention? You certainly are not.

Actually, no. Around 13% felt opposed the bill for not going far enough. A strong MINORITY were actually opposed to health care reform being a government bit of business. Republicans keep misrepresenting this for some reason.

:e4e:

Hey TH, I saw you viewing this thread when I posted and I knew you'd address me.

You think 13% were opposed? Are you still going to Media Matters for your information that you thought was neutral until I informed you that Hillary Clinton started that? :rotfl:

Where are *YOU*, getting your misinformation? You act as though you are correcting everyone's information, as if you have some secret way of knowing what percentage were for or against? Tell me TH, where can I go to get the correct numbers that you're getting. :rotfl:


The liberals and CBOs can also roll manure in powdered sugar, but it still ain't a jelly donut.

In our family we practice what we preach and put our money where our mouth is.

My schizophrenic son is 100% living in a house we own at our expense. He could be collecting SSI but isn't.

Also, when my twin sister was in a financial bind, instead of her getting govt. help, my family (mother and siblings) gave her a total of $60,000 in increments.

I think family should take care of family and if they can't because they're financially strapped, well often I have seen it's entirely their fault the way they live their lives.

Yet I know a few, which I've mentioned before that don't need it and live off it or some form of welfare and they're suckers, leeches and they make me so sick.

You know how radical I am about this and I've kept my cool pretty much since Obama cheated and did anything he could to get this passed.

Tell me TH, is there anything Obama has done that you find distasteful?

The majority of the USA didn't want this, this happened anyway.

I don't see how you can defend the indefensible, they're suppose to do what the majority of us (THE REAL GOVERNMENT) wants done.

Obama wants to go down in history as the man that got it done and I seriously fear America is going to go down the tubes in so many ways due to this but by golly, so what?

I was for health care reform, some things needed to be changed but this went too far almost as far as was possible.

As far as the Caesar part you mentioned, I know Christ wouldn't want abortions paid for with Christian's taxes and I don't care what executive order was signed, abortion will still be funded somehow.

And to pretend this is civil, I too will do the obligatory :e4e:

 

[Town Heretic]

Re: it's always something...

Yup, if they [the Amish] want to live in this scary and warring world and survive. I object to many things about how far I see this healthcare being taken advantage of, the same as there's fraud in any federal govt. ran program.

And my response remains: see: Re: supra.

How can anyone, that's a thinking person, believe that the federal govt. can run this at all without bankrupting the USA?

Because it should lower the cost of health care and retard the growth of a fiscal curve that threatened ruin and because it's been done elsewhere and I still believe Americans are as capable (or more so) than any other people on earth.

This healthcare was tried in Massachusetts and it is failing. Shouldn't someone be paying attention? You certainly are not.

No, it wasn't. And what we have here is a beginning, not an end.

Hey TH, I saw you viewing this thread when I posted and I knew you'd address me.

Sure. I always enjoy talking to you, BC.

You think 13% were opposed?

No, the polling indicated that 13% of the opposition was found in people who didn't believe it went far enough. People, by way of example, who felt any plan without a single payer option was pointless or people who insist on actual, universal health care. I watched the minority leader stand before Congress and misrepresent that by stating that most Americans opposed the bill and didn't want government involved. That was, to be blunt, a lie. That 13% simply wanted more. The minority position in America is the anti bill in any form crowd. It's the same crowd that lost the last election and by about the same margin.

Are you still going to Media Matters for your information that you thought was neutral until I informed you that Hillary Clinton started that? :rotfl:

Which untrue thing do you want me to address first? Heck, why choose, beans to the whole thing. If you have a real question though I'm all ears.

Where are *YOU*, getting your misinformation?

Why bother with a trial when the verdicts already in, eh? I believe it was a CNN poll. 39% of Americans favored the bill and 13% opposed it for not going far enough, meaning that 52% of Americans are actually in favor of health care and government involvement, despite an unprecedented outpouring of misinformation and traditional scare tactics by the far right of the Republican party. I just read a USA Today/Gallop poll that backed the notion. It showed more Americans than not favor the bill with 52% in favor, 39% in opposition and 10% without opinion.

You act as though you are correcting everyone's information,

No, I'm merely presenting actual polling data. I'm not acting at all.

as if you have some secret way of knowing what percentage were for or against? Tell me TH, where can I go to get the correct numbers that you're getting. :rotfl:

You could try Googling. It shouldn't be difficult to find.

The liberals and CBOs can also roll manure in powdered sugar, but it still ain't a jelly donut.

Imagine how much more effective that would have been were it applicable. lain:

In our family we practice what we preach and put our money where our mouth is.

That's nasty. Do you have any idea where that's been?

My schizophrenic son is 100% living in a house we own at our expense. He could be collecting SSI but isn't.

Okay. Good for you? :idunno: If that's how you want to handle it, fine. I'm glad you're wealthy enough to have that option...the same for your second example.

I think family should take care of family and if they can't because they're financially strapped, well often I have seen it's entirely their fault the way they live their lives.

You should look into serious studies on the matter. You'd change your mind.

Yet I know a few, which I've mentioned before that don't need it and live off it or some form of welfare and they're suckers, leeches and they make me so sick.

God knows we all know you know these people and you beat this drum like a monkey on crack. K: :drum: It's just not the rule. People steal. People lie. Some very rich people are in jail for doing both. We don't close the financial district over it or confuse the anecdotal practice with the actual rule.

You know how radical I am about this and I've kept my cool pretty much since Obama cheated and did anything he could to get this passed.

What in heaven's name does your temper look like unchecked? :chuckle: You just called the President dishonest. What else would you do, talk about his mother?

Tell me TH, is there anything Obama has done that you find distasteful?

I'd say he's been dead wrong on a number of things and right about others. That's about par for the presidential course. Distasteful? That's emotional mud I'm not going to roll around in.

I don't see how you can defend the indefensible,

Who could actually do that? :think:

Obama wants to go down in history as the man that got it done and I seriously fear America is going to go down the tubes in so many ways due to this but by golly, so what?

And I'd respond that the rising tide of health costs was going to sink every boat moored in the fiscal harbor.

I was for health care reform, some things needed to be changed but this went too far almost as far as was possible.

What sort of reform were you in favor of? What would have been acceptable to you? I'd say without the public option this bill was far more centrist than leftist in composition.

As far as the Caesar part you mentioned, I know Christ wouldn't want abortions paid for with Christian's taxes and I don't care what executive order was signed, abortion will still be funded somehow.

You think Christ agreed with the practices of the Roman Empire? :squint: Do you believe the Roman tax went only to moral enterprises? Of course not. And yet...

And to pretend this is civil, I too will do the obligatory :e4e:

I'm not pretending, BC. I simply think you make too much of too little and too little of so much often enough that it misleads you and astounds me. I'm sorry if that causes you disquiet. That isn't my intention.

:e4e: