toldailytopic: Should Osama Bin Laden be forgiven?

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 2nd, 2011 08:55 AM

toldailytopic: Should Osama Bin Laden be forgiven?

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[HisServant]

70 * 7... of course. As a matter of fact we are called to love our enemies.

I also find it apalling that those that call themselves christians could celebrate the death of a human created in God's image, no matter how bad and evil they acted.

I would rather have just seen him captured and hid away for the rest of his life.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I would rather have just seen him captured and hid away for the rest of his life.

That's your idea of forgiveness??? :idunno:

 

[MrRadish]

I think holding him personally and solely responsible for the various events with which he is associated distracts us from identifying the greater sociopolitical circumstances which led to them. In particular, it takes away the responsibility to critically examine our own society and attitudes, which in turn precludes our improvement, and may well lead to history repeating itself in one way or another.

 

[bybee]

That's your idea of forgiveness??? :idunno:

He didn't think that he was doing wrong. He did not ask for forgiveness so it cannot be given. He is answering to the only Judge who counts.

 

[bybee]

I think holding him personally and solely responsible for the various events with which he is associated distracts us from identifying the greater sociopolitical circumstances which led to them. In particular, it takes away the responsibility to critically examine our own society and attitudes, which in turn precludes our improvement, and may well lead to history repeating itself in one way or another.

Indeed, you present a rather lop-sided scenario. It is we who must examine our motives and behavior while the other side get's to continue on it's murderous unyielding path of destruction?
We have grown as a nation and as a society. Islam, appears to be under a standard of show no mercy.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Can't you just see all the pastors and priests at various churches this coming Sunday crying and begging their congregation to forgive Bin Laden. "Gee... look how Christian I am... I can even forgive Osama Bin Laden, you should too".

Makes me wanna barf. :vomit:

 

[Lovejoy]

He didn't think that he was doing wrong. He did not ask for forgiveness so it cannot be given. He is answering to the only Judge who counts.

I agree. Beyond that it almost seems crass for someone like me, only peripherally harmed by OBL, whose only pain is on behalf of those who actually lost loved ones, to be trying to offer any kind of real forgiveness for his actions. Who am I to do such? Particularly when he remained unrepentant.

 

[MrRadish]

Indeed, you present a rather lop-sided scenario. It is we who must examine our motives and behavior while the other side get's to continue on it's murderous unyielding path of destruction?

The two aren't mutually exclusive, bybee. Just because there are people who think and act savagely on 'the other side' (whatever that is) doesn't mean that we in the West are automatically blameless merely by virtue of opposition. And whereas we can't force Islamic extremists into introspection, we can enter it ourselves voluntarily. And I think that demonising Bin Laden or extremist Islam as being independent forces of evil in their own right, as opposed to the product of complex international history and politics, is a terrible oversimplication that can only end in further tragedy.

We have grown as a nation and as a society. Islam, appears to be under a standard of show no mercy.

'Islam' is an extremely broad term that applies to the religion of over a billion people, including the peaceable Sufis and, of course, millions of inhabitants of the West who are as American as you or as British as I.

If you're referring to extremist Islam, then yes, 'Show no Mercy' would certainly seem to apply to many adherents thereof. There must be some reason for this, and the preponderance of tolerant, rational Muslims demonstrates that that reason clearly isn't totally rooted in religion. The other major factor that springs to mind is global sociopolitics. Don't you think, therefore, that a good place to look for possible influences on this would be the West? Us having been the dominant cultural forces throughout the world for centuries, and all. :think:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I forgive him. I'm no better than he is. I have the potential for all sorts of terrible things within me. And, he actually thought he was serving God by doing what he did, like most religious people today, and no different than Catholics burning Christians at the stake for distributing Bibles. He was deceived by the god of this world. I wish he would have gotten saved before his death.

 

[bybee]

Can't you just see all the pastors and priests at various churches this coming Sunday crying and begging their congregation to forgive Bin Laden. "Gee... look how Christian I am... I can even forgive Osama Bin Laden, you should too".

Makes me wanna barf. :vomit:

Sadly, I must agree with you.

 

[some other dude]

Lovejoy is right. It's not for me to forgive him.That's for God and those he has harmed to decide.

 

[bybee]

The two aren't mutually exclusive, bybee. Just because there are people who think and act savagely on 'the other side' (whatever that is) doesn't mean that we in the West are automatically blameless merely by virtue of opposition. And whereas we can't force Islamic extremists into introspection, we can enter it ourselves voluntarily. And I think that demonising Bin Laden or extremist Islam as being independent forces of evil in their own right, as opposed to the product of complex international history and politics, is a terrible oversimplication that can only end in further tragedy.



'Islam' is an extremely broad term that applies to the religion of over a billion people, including the peaceable Sufis and, of course, millions of inhabitants of the West who are as American as you or as British as I.

If you're referring to extremist Islam, then yes, 'Show no Mercy' would certainly seem to apply to many adherents thereof. There must be some reason for this, and the preponderance of tolerant, rational Muslims demonstrates that that reason clearly isn't totally rooted in religion. The other major factor that springs to mind is global sociopolitics. Don't you think, therefore, that a good place to look for possible influences on this would be the West? Us having been the dominant cultural forces throughout the world for centuries, and all. :think:

I agree, we must be on guard to examine our motives and our behavior. We must adjust our tactics to the fact that this really is one world and the needs of all peoples must be considered and accommodated as much as possible. We are not blameless. The greed of some Americans is loathesome.
I would like to see rational dialogue more prominently displayed in the media.
It does seem that bashing America has become an acceptable behavior often by the very people who petition for and receive our aid. I find this offensive.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I forgive him. I'm no better than he is. I have the potential for all sorts of terrible things within me. And, he actually thought he was serving God by doing what he did, like most religious people today, and no different than Catholics burning Christians at the stake for distributing Bibles. He was deceived by the god of this world. I wish he would have gotten saved before his death.

Do you suppose God forgave Osama?

 

[chrysostom]

as we forgive those who trespass against us

 

[MrRadish]

I agree, we must be on guard to examine our motives and our behavior. We must adjust our tactics to the fact that this really is one world and the needs of all peoples must be considered and accommodated as much as possible. We are not blameless. The greed of some Americans is loathesome.
I would like to see rational dialogue more prominently displayed in the media.

I couldn't agree more. And that applies to both sides of the political spectrum, of coruse!

It does seem that bashing America has become an acceptable behavior often by the very people who petition for and receive our aid. I find this offensive.

I think it's at once understandable and hypocritical do so. On the one hand, the West (I say this so that it applies to European countries as well) frequently abuses its position as dominant world power through greed, cultural imperialism, rash intervention, insensitivity, and environmental irresponsibility. On the other, it is also a force for real improvement in the world, gives vast amounts in aid and other noble causes, and is undoubtedly has higher standards of living than the majority the rest of the world. To lose sight of either is leads to a skewed perspective; to act as a result of that perspective almost always ends horrifically.

 

[chrysostom]

Do you suppose God forgave Osama?

God would have forgiven Osama
if
Osama had asked for it
but
I don't think he did since he was fighting to the end

 

[Rusha]

Should Osama Bin Laden be forgiven?

Forgiveness is a *personal* thing depending on the individuals involved. I would *personally* never forgive him and find no fault with those who feel the same way.

The only good reason for forgiving this madman would be for the personal benefit of the individual doing the forgiving.

 

[bybee]

as we forgive those who trespass against us

Forgiveness is a dynamic behavior. It has many facets but one goal.
Through Christ, if we have a contrite heart, we are forgiven and our slate is wiped clean. We will still experience the consequences of our words and deeds in this life but, our soul's are refreshed and cleansed so that we may go on and live sober, righteous and Godly lives.
If one does not ask for forgiveness, if one does not have a contrite heart then the dynamic becomes lop-sided and possibly derailed.
The tactics which Osama Bin Laden employed to further his cause were and are detestable to me but, I cannot know the man's heart. I cannot know what motivated him. It appears to me that he felt justified in his vicious tactics. However, was it a lust for power, money or a just cause? I don't know.
He was just one of many leaders willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people to further his own ends. Sadly, very little will change because of his death.

 

[Lovejoy]

I think the government executed its responsibilities in attempting to bring an international criminal to justice. I also think that OBL commited suicide by proxy in an effort to avoid that justice. With that, he opted to face a higher court. With that, he takes that outcome on himself. As we can no longer affect his state, it is up to us to decide what lingering rage we carry, or desire for further satisfaction.

Beyond that, I don't like conflating the notion of a government carrying out its duties for the protection of the populace it serves with the personal, individual responsibility for forgiveness. Both scripture and common sense says they are different. I also don't like supplanting the notions of justice or personal forgiveness with some hazy notion of national guilt. That is, the concept that we are all generally at fault for something preventing us from seeking to prosecute crime.