toldailytopic: Pedophile priests. Why does the the Catholic Church have such a wide-s

[Granite]

Please explain precisely how the Church's theological/moral opposition to artificial contraception supposedly equates to, as you write, "an especially sick, twisted, unhealthy view of sexuality".

I see, so you want me to spell out why telling married people not to use birth control is unhealthy and twisted. Maybe you'd like me to also use small words to explain why telling people masturbation is a sin happens to be warped and twisted as well.

If you need to ask, you'll certainly never understand the answer. A lot of you papists have this problem, I notice. Point out an organization that venerates an unattainable virgin and describes the lion's share of sexuality as sin steeps a practitioner in a warped mindset and all you get are papal apologists knocking each other over to defend a church that's aided and abetted child rape for decades. Cute.

 

[Cruciform]

I see, so you want me to spell out why telling married people not to use birth control is unhealthy and twisted.

Yes. Please explain the Church's theological rationale regarding artificial contraception, and then demonstrate that it is, as you claim, "sick, twisted, and unhealthy." Thanks.

Maybe you'd like me to also use small words to explain why telling people masturbation is a sin happens to be warped and twisted as well.

The two issues are not unrelated, but let's stick to the subject of contraception for now.

If you need to ask, you'll certainly never understand the answer.

I don't know. I'm a fairly intelligent, well-educated guy. I'm pretty sure I could grasp your explanation.

A lot of you papists have this problem, I notice.

Unfortunately for your assumptions, I was an Evangelical Protestant for most of my life until becoming Catholic in 2001. So your generalization just doesn't apply.

Point out an organization that...describes the lion's share of sexuality as sin...

By "the lion's share of sexuality," I'll assume that you mean "the entire spectrum of sexual acts and circumstances in which humans have been known to engage." In other words, "the lion's share of sexual acts that human beings desire to enact." However, "want" hardly equates to "ought," does it. You seem rather frustrated that the authoritative moral teachings of the historic Christian Church might get in the way of you doing whatever you want to do.

...steeps a practitioner in a warped mindset...

"warped" = "whatever might hinder Granite's particular sexual desires and preferences"​

:doh:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[zippy2006]

I see, so you want me to spell out why telling married people not to use birth control is unhealthy and twisted. Maybe you'd like me to also use small words to explain why telling people masturbation is a sin happens to be warped and twisted as well.

If you need to ask, you'll certainly never understand the answer. A lot of you papists have this problem, I notice. Point out an organization that venerates an unattainable virgin and describes the lion's share of sexuality as sin steeps a practitioner in a warped mindset and all you get are papal apologists knocking each other over to defend a church that's aided and abetted child rape for decades. Cute.

Can you explain to us the healthy mindset that is contrasted with the "warped mindset"? (you have an uncanny knack for using many words to express zero arguments or logical points)

 

[serpentdove]

Love how you defend them (Jer. 9:3). To be forgiven you must admit your sin (Rom. 2–9) and repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30).

The Roman Catholic Church is corrupted and in its final states of apostasy (Mt 7:20, 2 Tim. 3:13, Rev. 3:14–22). They use rules and laws to control men (1 Jo 5:3). What men really need is a savior (Ro 13:8,10; Ga 3:10; Jas 2:10).

Get saved (2 Tim. 1:10). Ditch legalism (Matt. 15:9, Mk 7:8, 9, Mk 7:6, 7, Col. 2). Leave innocent boys alone (Lev. 18:22–28, 1 Cor. 5:1–5, Lev. 20:13–16).

Related:

"In the case of the "Priestly Porn" article, my primary source was a Catholic ministry calling itself the Roman Catholic Faithful. This group, guided by responsible Catholic priests, is concerned with what is happening in the Catholic priesthood and trying to do something about it. They have identified dozens of priests and at least one bishop who are/were actively involved in posting to a web site and newsgroup created for homosexual Catholic religious. The people at RCF have not just made vague claims of wrongdoing. No indeed. They have provided the text of newsgroup postings and emails and even the pornographic pictures exchanged by participating priests. In most cases, RCF has protected the participants by editing out their names, though they do offer to provide full details to any Catholic authority who asks for them.

One of the priests who is named is assigned to a diocese in Oklahoma. The RCF wrote to his ordinary concerning this priest's activities on the Internet. The diocese asked for additional information, which was provided. Whatever action was taken to correct or discipline the priest, if any, apparently was of little effect, for he continued his internet activities. It was when this priest wrote that he had celebrated a Mass for a homosexual activist organization that RCF decided to go public with his name and details. All this is available at the Roman Catholic Faithful web site.

One of the tactics used to "defend" against the truth in my article was that of creating a strawman to divert attention from the issue... ' Full text: Priestly Porn

 

[Granite]

Please explain the Church's theological rationale regarding artificial contraception, and then demonstrate that it is, as you claim, "sick, twisted, and unhealthy."

The idea that "every sperm is sacred" boils down to control: a way of controlling the masses, a means of inflicting unnecessary guilt, and an outstanding method for creating plenty of new practitioners. In the Middle Ages this kind of mentality may have been seen as pragmatic, or even necessary. It's certainly outlived whatever usefulness it may have ever had.

Unfortunately for your assumptions, I was an Evangelical Protestant for most of my life until becoming Catholic in 2001.

Meaning you're a papist...now. Like I said.

By "the lion's share of sexuality," I'll assume that you mean "the entire spectrum of sexual acts and circumstances in which humans have been known to engage."

Not exactly, no. Unless the point of intercourse is procreation, the church claims sex is sinful. Do the math, then get back to me.

In other words, "the lion's share of sexual acts that human beings desire to enact."

Again: no. You're having a real hard time actually reading my posts, I notice. The majority of human sexual behavior even within marriage is described by the church as sinful. That's it: cut and dry.

You seem rather frustrated that the authoritative moral teachings of the historic Christian Church might get in the way of you doing whatever you want to do.

:rotfl:

Now you're reaching. I'm a happily married guy, thanks. And there's never been a single minute that your church has once influenced me or my life. Thanks for playing, try again next time.

Stop acting like you know me and quit presuming to read my mind and we might be able to talk like real adults. Sound fair?

 

[Lon]

To me, this question is best addressed with "what are we doing to address this problem" more than the problem itself. "How can we stop this and what should our churches be doing?" is proactive and meaningful. In my church, we do background checks on all workers with the police at about $150 a pop. This doesn't screen first-time offenses, but it does eliminate known risk. I recommend this kind of accountability.

 

[chrysostom]

To me, this question is best addressed with "what are we doing to address this problem" more than the problem itself. "How can we stop this and what should our churches be doing?" is proactive and meaningful. In my church, we do background checks on all workers with the police at about $150 a pop. This doesn't screen first-time offenses, but it does eliminate known risk. I recommend this kind of accountability.

because of this 'priest scandal' our schools do a very good job of screening anyone who comes into contact with our children
which
includes fingerprints

unfortunately the problem with homosexual priests has not been talked about
and
because of that we can't be sure it has been completely taken care of

I'm sure there are still many priests and bishops who are either homosexual or very sympathetic to their situation

 

[Cruciform]

The idea that "every sperm is sacred"...

I asked you to explain the Church's theological rationale for opposing artificial contraception, and this is your "explanation"? Well, I can just stop you right here, because this is certainly not why the Church is against contraception. How in the world can you presume to criticize Catholic teaching on a public forum, when it's more than clear that you haven't even begun to understand that teaching at its most basic level? :doh:

Unless the point of intercourse is procreation, the church claims sex is sinful.

Merely another false assumption on your part. The Church does not teach that "the point of intercourse is procreation." Again, you're pontificating (pun intended) upon things about which you have not a single clue.

The majority of human sexual behavior even within marriage is described by the church as sinful.

Proof, please.

I'm a happily married guy, thanks. And there's never been a single minute that your church has once influenced me or my life.

...and you're passionately concerned that it stay just that way, aren't you. Nobody gets to tell Granite what he should or shouldn't be doing in the bedroom, right?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[aSeattleConserv]

To me, this question is best addressed with "what are we doing to address this problem" more than the problem itself. "How can we stop this and what should our churches be doing?" is proactive and meaningful. In my church, we do background checks on all workers with the police at about $150 a pop. This doesn't screen first-time offenses, but it does eliminate known risk. I recommend this kind of accountability.

Obviously your church isn't associated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Lon. They ordain openly (i.e. "proud") homosexual clergy, and in the case of "Vicky" Gene Robinson, will bless his "marriage" to another male.
http://americansfortruth.com/news/bishop-vicky-gene-robinson-wants-to-be-a-june-bride.html

Give it a couple of years; the homosexual child molestation cases in the ELCA will make the Catholic's look minuscule.

 

[Random]

If you look at the numbers, they aren't much different that what you see in any institution, religious or not, where a pedophile could have the same access to children.

The problem isn't that the Catholic church is more prone to pedophilia but that they handle it so very badly when it does occur.

I agree with this. Also, one thing I would like to bring up (which I think is pretty obvious) is that pedophiles will always gravitate towards positions where they will be in contact with children.

The sad truth is is that the wrongful handling of these situations in the Catholic Church will only give more pedophiles an incentive to become priests. It really is sad and downright despicable.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I asked you to explain the Church's theological rationale for opposing artificial contraception, and this is your "explanation"? Well, I can just stop you right here, because this is certainly not why the Church is against contraception. How in the world can you presume to criticize Catholic teaching on a public forum, when it's more than clear that you haven't even begun to understand that teaching at its most basic level? :doh:


Merely another false assumption on your part. The Church does not teach that "the point of intercourse is procreation." Again, you're pontificating (pun intended) upon things about which you have not a single clue.


Proof, please.


...and you're passionately concerned that it stay just that way, aren't you. Nobody gets to tell Granite what he should or shouldn't be doing in the bedroom, right?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Well to be fair I wouldn't want anybody telling me what I can and can't do 'in the bedroom' either....

But why is the church so opposed to contraception?

 

[The Barbarian]

The problem isn't that the Catholic church is more prone to pedophilia but that they handle it so very badly when it does occur.

The Church is now taking steps to eliminate it, albeit rather tardily. Note the reaction of Catholics on this board, compared to that of many Protestants who still harbor the comfortable delusion that it's mostly a Catholic problem. As the data show, it's mostly a Protestant problem.

What's alarming is that pedophiles in some of those denominations are going to harm more children because people in those denominations have their heads in the sand. If they cared more for children than they hate the Church, they might prevent that.

But they will, I suppose, learn the hard way.

No one's church is immune to it, but denial will merely make the problem worse.

 

[Cruciform]

Well to be fair I wouldn't want anybody telling me what I can and can't do 'in the bedroom' either...

Most human beings don't. We much prefer to ascribe all moral authority to ourselves.

But why is the church so opposed to contraception?

Here are three sources that explain the Church's theological, philosophical and moral rationale, each being more detailed than the one before:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp
http://www.catholicsource.net/abcbible.html
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html​

Also:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0658.html
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0659.html​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[chrysostom]

Well to be fair I wouldn't want anybody telling me what I can and can't do 'in the bedroom' either....

But why is the church so opposed to contraception?

okay let's make a deal

we won't tell you what you can or can't do in your bedroom
if
you don't tell us what we can teach in our church

is that reasonable?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Most human beings don't. We much prefer to ascribe all moral authority to ourselves.

It's more a case of it being mandated that causes concern to me (Which I'm not saying you're doing). If I submit to a church's teaching on the matters under discussion then fair enough. It's my choice.

Here are three sources that explain the Church's theological, philosophical and moral rationale, each being more detailed than the one before:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp
http://www.catholicsource.net/abcbible.html
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html​

Also:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0658.html
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0659.html​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Thanks for the links. Is there any particular reason why contraception negates being fruitful and multiplying from any of these perspectives? It strikes me that couples could still procreate and have managable families whereas without contraceptive aids they'd either have to risk tons of kids or give up a sex life altogether. Unless forms of non penetrative intimacy are acceptable?
Morally I see a stronger argument for anti abortion than from preventing conception in the first place. I guess I wouldn't make much of a catholic.....

 

[Arthur Brain]

okay let's make a deal

we won't tell you what you can or can't do in your bedroom
if
you don't tell us what we can teach in our church

is that reasonable?

Chill out Chrys. I'm not OMEGA. You don't get to say what I can or can't do in the bedroom anyway, much the same as I don't get to say what you can teach in your church. So there's no 'deal' to speak of anywhere is there? It's a conversation is all.

:e4e:

 

[chrysostom]

Well to be fair I wouldn't want anybody telling me what I can and can't do 'in the bedroom' either....

so who are we talking about here?

 

[Arthur Brain]

so who are we talking about here?

I've already addressed that with Cruciform.

 

[chrysostom]

I've already addressed that with Cruciform.

well if anyone tries to tell you what you can or can't do in your bedroom,

I hope you let us know

 

[Arthur Brain]

well if anyone tries to tell you what you can or can't do in your bedroom,

I hope you let us know

Chrys. Grow up. If you're not interested in having a proper dialogue then I'll wait for those who are. Quit being so defensive and taking debate as some sort of personal attack on your church. If you can't then just ignore my posts on the topic. Deal?