this is one I do not have to worry about
but
I do feel rich
is that a sin?
but
I do feel rich
is that a sin?
toldailytopic: Is it wrong to be rich? Is it wrong to desire to be rich?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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:darwinsm: Seems to be the case.
eameece
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Yes, as you know, I'm telling you that, and I'm sure others have told you that.
Not necessarily of course; it's not exactly correct to CALL someone "evil." Not according to Jesus, of course. That's judging, and people can be conservative and rich and be real nice in other ways. But Jesus also said how hard it is to be spiritual and holy and yet be rich. He said it's possible (since with God all things are possible).
But it is wrong to be conservative today, regardless of whether you are rich or not, because today's conservatism itself is wrong; not wrong because of who you are. Conservatism is wrong today because of the reasons most liberals would give you. It does empower the rich, who already have all the power they need. It has stalled all progress toward a more decent and healthy and participatory society.
But conservatism is wrong today because it's the trickle-down theory. Give the rich even more money, the theory says, and don't tax it or take any of it away, because the rich are "job creaters." But those who are wealthy and powerful tend not to use that power for the good of all. They don't create any more jobs. Their business and financial activities have detrimental consequences, if not pursued in an ethical way. And they resist regulation, and would rather conduct their financial activities in an unethical way without being regulated. They use the trickle-down theory to excuse their behavior, saying regulation discourages business activity. So they oppose environmental and carbon regulations, and workers rights, and consumer protection, and protections against secret gambling with other peoples money. In order to resist these things, they have developed a huge lobby since the 1970s, after the people got active to regulate them. They buy elections, and appoint court justices that uphold their ability to buy elections as "free speech." Conservatives uphold, vote for and support all these things. Whether they are rich or not, this is bad for the country.
And conservatives use religious and racial prejudice to get people to vote for conservative politicians, who then proceed to screw them over economically, and to use their tax money for deadly imperialist wars to boost their businesses (especially the oil business). And conservatives lower taxes, without being willing or able to cut spending, which causes huge government debts and deficits-- which are the perfect excuse to oppose any government actions or any further taxes to pay for them, and to "put government on a diet."
And conservatives don't want to pay taxes, and don't want to share any of the benefits they get from society, so they say "welfare is a bad thing" because "people ought to earn their way." But people need and deserve protection from being fired and abused and not given a job. Even if there is some truth in society not developing dependency, to resist all sorts of "welfare" because it costs tax money, is not good, and gives all power to the rich to abuse and fire people and allow poverty to continue. And they use the excuse that "government can't do anything right," to oppose it taking their tax money for free education and infrastructure and all the other things government does to support their business and the economy.
The "good," according to Jesus, are willing to give their money away, and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Conservatives today are not willing to do this.
Their corporations create jobs. But they are too big and powerful, and they resist regulation, and they buy up or squeeze out competition, so the consumer has little choice but to shop at Walmarts. And anti-trust regulations and fair tarriffs are not in vogue because this violates the tenets of the trickle-down theory. The conservatives, especially rich ones, support this corporate system that is degrading our economy and our society.
Conservatism as it is today is wrong and unnecessary and unhealthy. It is too powerful. It needs to go away.
No, it is not wrong to rich OR poor
No, it is not wrong to rich OR poor
1 Sam. 2:7,8 state very clearly that it is God who makes poor and makes rich. He elevates some and lowers others. If God has enriched, the wealthy are accountable to God to be faithful stewards over that with which God has blessed them.
If they are in poverty, they are accouintable to be faithful stewards over what God has given them. Whether rich or poor, men are rich or poor their condition is of God. If poor, God has given them a slothful, irresponsible spirit, and no one is responsible but themselves. The attitude that others owe them something is the key factor in their condition of poverty.
George Washington Carver is proof of all men to prosper. But many don't want to admit that fact.
No, it is not wrong to rich OR poor
1 Sam. 2:7,8 state very clearly that it is God who makes poor and makes rich. He elevates some and lowers others. If God has enriched, the wealthy are accountable to God to be faithful stewards over that with which God has blessed them.
If they are in poverty, they are accouintable to be faithful stewards over what God has given them. Whether rich or poor, men are rich or poor their condition is of God. If poor, God has given them a slothful, irresponsible spirit, and no one is responsible but themselves. The attitude that others owe them something is the key factor in their condition of poverty.
George Washington Carver is proof of all men to prosper. But many don't want to admit that fact.
eameece
New member
First of all, the Bible is not always right. Jesus however was usually right; he was able to manifest his being in God and to show others the way.
No government, according to Jesus, has any power that was not given to them from above. The wealthy are also accountable to the state and to the people to be faithful stewards of their wealth. Today they are not, and are using conservative politics to make sure they are not held accountable for their behavior.
No, most people are poor through no fault of their own. The attitude among conservatives that they don't owe the state any money, is the key factor in why the poor are poor. This is not to say that people do not have the capacity to create wealth, whatever their current condition, with the help of Spirit. But to hold people solely responsible for their condition is not to be compassionate and generous, as the Lord asks us to be. To use the capacity of God to bless people, as an excuse to not pay your own taxes (and as an excuse to demand that politicians lower them), is wrong and destructive.
The life of one person proves nothing.
lucaspa
Member
Jesus is consistently against both being rich and desiring to be rich. The famous "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God" is only a single instance of this. Jesus didn't have any use for the rich. He seemed to feel that there was something about wealth itself that prevented people from following God. So yes, it appears to be wrong to be rich and desiring to be rich. We are not to desire the wealth of this world, but the wealth of the Kingdom of God.
lucaspa
Member
The OT and the NT have very different attitudes about God and about wealth. In the OT God is viewed as very partisan: He is the God of Israel. What's more, Yahweh is competing with all the other gods people believe in. Through much of the OT, those gods are thought to exist. Each is partisan for its particular people/nation. This is expressed in verse 10:
"The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed."
See? God's "king". Which would be Israel's king.
So the way Israel looked at it, being a wealthy state was a sign that 1) Yahweh existed and 2) favored Israel. Wealth for the state is "proof" that Yahweh exists.
Not really. Carver had the disadvantage of being black in a racists society. But he had the advantage of having an intelligence much, much higher than average. Carver is evidence that intellectual genius will triumph even in the presence of discrimination.
However, very few men have Carver's intellect. So you can't use him as "proof of all men to prosper". All you need do is look at the vast majority of Carver's black contemporaries to show that not all can prosper.
Nor was Carver rich. Remember, this is about being rich. Carver donated his entire life savings as an endowment to start the Carver Research Foundation in 1940. His entire life savings? $60,000. Not rich, even in those days.
autumn_trees37
New member
The love of all money is the root of all evil. And God killed people because of their greed. That should sufficiently answer your question.
It is not wrong to want nice things or good food as long as they don't take the place of God. Have God first in life is the key. If you can handle a lot of material things without them getting in the way of your relationship with God then there is nothing wrong with them.
Proverbs 30:8-9 offers some sound advice: - Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Placing the Lord Jesus Christ on the throne of your life is the key. The rich man was turned away by Jesus because his material goods took the place of God.
He held onto his possessions too tightly instead of obeying the voice of Jesus.
If God blesses you, remember, that it is He that has blessed you. Always remember to put God first. The stuff He has blessed you with might be used in ministry.
Proverbs 30:8-9 offers some sound advice: - Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Placing the Lord Jesus Christ on the throne of your life is the key. The rich man was turned away by Jesus because his material goods took the place of God.
| Matthew 19:16-24 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. |
He held onto his possessions too tightly instead of obeying the voice of Jesus.
If God blesses you, remember, that it is He that has blessed you. Always remember to put God first. The stuff He has blessed you with might be used in ministry.
Agreed, we are each given talents and expected to put them to use. The "buried" talent reaped condemnation from our Lord.
Being rich just seems really dangerous for Christians. Biblical characters that didn't know the fullest view of God we're ever going to see here (Christ) aren't always the best examples to follow. Giving it all up (not tithing) is the goal. I don't necessarily give more when I earn more, so I only want to earn as much as I can handle. Hopefully I can handle larger paychecks as I get older. And hopefully someday I'll have the opportunity to lay down my life for someone else. Hopefully I'll be ready for that when it happens. Like, when I'm 70 or something. Or if a rapture happens I'm cool with that too. 
Dark Radiance
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I think wealth and the desire for wealth are bad due to the type of narcisissm that is usually the prerequisite for that. Putting ones self and one's desires as the greatest good means that very little time is spent towards God and doing God's work here on earth.
elected4ever
New member
That is absolute nonsense. If a person's desire is to help people they must first have the ability to help. If they desire the ability to help they first must be driven to succeed otherwise they have to depend on others to survive.
Success can be defined as the meeting of the prepared with an available opportunity. It does not mean taking improper advantage of the unprepared.
Giving is a gift. It requires that a person be a good steward of the assets that a person has been blessed with. Most people that I know who live a life of dependency are not good stewards of the blessing that God has bestowed on all men.
Some folks do not, for reasons of there on; health, education and so on do not prepare themselves or do not have the ability or opportunity to prepare themselves to become the givers that they wish to become.
Giving is like all other gifts that mankind has been blessed with. They must be pursued and expanded with a humility toward the giver of the blessing. Men must learn how to be a giver and not a taker.
elected4ever
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Why do you wish to limit your usefulness to God? It seems to me you should wont to be a greater tool in the hands God. The greater test is to live not die. The older I get the more I see the hand of God in the preservation of my life.Being rich just seems really dangerous for Christians. Biblical characters that didn't know the fullest view of God we're ever going to see here (Christ) aren't always the best examples to follow. Giving it all up (not tithing) is the goal. I don't necessarily give more when I earn more, so I only want to earn as much as I can handle. Hopefully I can handle larger paychecks as I get older. And hopefully someday I'll have the opportunity to lay down my life for someone else. Hopefully I'll be ready for that when it happens. Like, when I'm 70 or something. Or if a rapture happens I'm cool with that too.
Dark Radiance
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I disagree with your categorization that my statement was nonsense. My post falls in line with centuries of Christian teaching on the subject. Your formulation seems to predicated on "prosperity teachings" which is a very recent development, and is based far more on political and economic ideologies than Christian dogma.
elected4ever
New member
Actually the emphases of the scripture is not the condemnation of the rich. The condemnation comes to those who loves not their brother, rich or poor. I was only using wisdom. God uses theses who are prepared to do and not those who are not prepared to do. Are you telling me that you believe that as child of God you are committed to short changing God?
I believe in giving with a thankful heart. That does not require great wealth and I don't believe that simple because a person is not wealthy he is unsuccessful. Most of my brothers are not extremely wealthy but the drive to succeed is always there because the better they do the more they can do. This is viewed as opportunity and not condemnation.
Dark Radiance
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Did Jesus shortchange God? Did not Christ, who surpassed both the heavenly hosts and mortal men, refuse to take over an earthly kingdom? Christ become incarnate, not merely to redeem humanity through His passion, but also to teach us through His way of life. He rejected a kingship (wealth) to take up a death (poverty).Just as Our Lord spurned his kingship, we are to spurn glory and prosperity.
elected4ever
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Kinda skewed there buddy. Jesus was king while on earth. Jesus did not reject wealth and He did not endorse poverty. Jesus ministered to rich and poor alike. Jesus did not play class warfare.
Dark Radiance
New member
Nothing skewed in the slightest. Please read Apologia pauperum by Bonaventure. You would also benefit from reading his Disputed Questions of Evangelical Perfection. Both have recently been translated into English.
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