toldailytopic: How did life come into existence?

[Oreoracle]

In the same way that something cannot come from nothing, sentience cannot come from non-sentience.

Unlike existence, sentience is typically considered to be an emergent property; that is, an entity spontaneously becomes sentient because of its other properties.

For example, imagine three line segments that share no vertices on an otherwise empty plane. They aren't sides of a triangle, are they? Yet, if you connect their vertices, a slew of properties spontaneously emerge; specifically, the fact that they become sides of a triangle.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oreoracle, you are derailing and otherwise attempting to hijack this thread. Please do not do that.

Just answer the question that is posed in this thread and join in on the conversation. If you don't want to answer the question and would rather create a "rabbit trail" please stay out of this thread and go start your own thread. :up:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Okay, next question(s): We are assuming, for the sake of argument, that there exists a god who is intelligent, eternal, and non-physical. How did this non-physical entity influence the physical world, and how did he inject matter and energy into this world where none previously existed?

Kind of depends on what matter ultimately turns out to be. I would hypothesize that it has something to do with E=mc^2.

To elaborate on the first part of that question, I would like to know a) how this realm God resides in co-exists with our own,

Unknown. To date, we are not able to explain or even hypothesize a super-natural plane of existence. By definition, it exists outside of the natural universe that can be fully experienced by our five senses.

b) what boundary divides that realm from our own,

Assuming a boundary even exists, I would surmise a thin and permeable boundary. God can interact whit us and we, meaning our souls, can pass through that boundary.

c) how does God manage to permeate through that boundary to enter our realm?

I am not convinced that a boundary per se exists. A biologist from CU Boulder once presented a class at our church. It was hypothesized that God exists in n+1 dimensions. For instance, we exist in 4 dimensions: x, y, z and t so God would exist in at least 5 dimensions. Mathematically it is possible to prove the existence of 13 dimensions (the lat time I checked) so God would exists in at least 14 dimensions. If our physical bodies exist in 4 dimensions then there are at least 10 dimensions available for the spiritual realm to occupy. Since all these dimensions exist as co-planer, they all exist in the same "space" at the same "time" for lack of a better description. This would mean that God does not need to cross any boundaries as God exists in all dimensions so He is always present.

 

[Newman]

Unlike existence, sentience is typically considered to be an emergent property; that is, an entity spontaneously becomes sentient because of its other properties.

For example, imagine three line segments that share no vertices on an otherwise empty plane. They aren't sides of a triangle, are they? Yet, if you connect their vertices, a slew of properties spontaneously emerge; specifically, the fact that they become sides of a triangle.

Although I'm unclear why we are using geometry to discuss biological/metaphysical phenomena, I understand what you are saying.

However, a triangle is no more than it's three lines. The fact that you and I are discussing our observations of the physical world and postulations about its origins shows that life is more than non-life.

Although you can derive angles, areas, and whatnot by combining three lines, you can't derive dynamism, choice, action, or awareness by combining a bunch of atoms. Something more than what the combination of the atoms occurs, namely, dynamism, choice, action, awareness - sentience.

A triangle is the sum of it's physical parts. We are more than the sum of our physical parts because we can do things, think, move, interact, choose, love, hate, and manipulate matter through our own will.

 

[Oreoracle]

Oreoracle, you are derailing and otherwise attempting to hijack this thread. Please do not do that.

On the contrary, CabinetMaker and I are making headway on the topic. I ask questions, he answers them. That's how conversation works.

I myself don't have an "answer" because I don't make huge assumptions about the universe. That doesn't mean that I can't contribute, as the conversation between CabinetMaker and I has shown. In fact, I attempted to converse with you by challenging your assumptions. But you don't want to share with the rest of the class. You want to make me look like a bad guy for being critical, which is much easier than actually answering my questions.

But if asking genuine and relevant questions doesn't count as "conversing" in your book, adios. :wave2:

 

[firon]

God said,...let there be, and there was.

 

[Silent Hunter]

You excel at selective reading and response.

:think:

:rotfl:

. . . you obviously haven't been reading YOUR posts.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

On the contrary, CabinetMaker and I are making headway on the topic. I ask questions, he answers them. That's how conversation works.

The least you could do is take a stab at the answer so we know where you are coming from.

I myself don't have an "answer" because I don't make huge assumptions about the universe.

Really? You don't have an answer at all? How about a "gutt feel"? How about a theory that sounds the most likely to you?

You gotta have some sort of opinion.

But if asking genuine and relevant questions doesn't count as "conversing" in your book, adios. :wave2:

I've been running this forum for 15 years now. I know exactly how these things go (heck we saw the same thing yesterday from the agnostic, atheist, camp just yesterday).

It goes something like this....

QUESTION: How do you make a peanut butter & jelly sandwich?

Christian: You take two slices of bread and spread peanut butter on one slice and jelly on the other. You place the two slices together with the peanut butter and jelly in the middle. You eat.

Agnostic/atheist: What do you mean by "make"? Are you asking how all the ingredients are actually made because you really are not making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich if you have peanut butter, jelly, and bread already in your possession. Or are you asking about the metaphysical aspects of what it means to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because my college professor said that the notion of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich cannot be determined if... :blabla:

Christian: Nevermind. :sigh:

 

[WizardofOz]

:rotfl:

Classic

 

[Sherman]

QUESTION: How do you make a peanut butter sandwich?
Agnostic/atheist: What do you mean by "make"? Are you asking how all the ingredients are actually made because you really are not making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich if you have peanut butter, jelly, and bread already in your possession. Or are you asking about the metaphysical aspects of what it means to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because my college professor said that the notion of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich cannot be determined if... :blabla:

Oh brother! I ran into this tripe when I was in college. :dead:

I had one classmate that thought that everything you saw and experienced was just your imagination. It didn't really exist. So in his mind the peanut butter and jelly sandwich really didn't exist. This fellow, BTW, was out of shape. He ate junk food and didn't take care of himself because to him the world was all an illusion. He looked like a bum and wore dowdy clothes. He didn't care about anything. I thought he was a nut job. I wonder-- If I dropped a hammer on his toe would he still think the world is an illusion?

 

[John Mortimer]

True life never came into existence because true life is eternal.

 

[Lovejoy]

I am not convinced that a boundary per se exists. A biologist from CU Boulder once presented a class at our church. It was hypothesized that God exists in n+1 dimensions. For instance, we exist in 4 dimensions: x, y, z and t so God would exist in at least 5 dimensions. Mathematically it is possible to prove the existence of 13 dimensions (the lat time I checked) so God would exists in at least 14 dimensions. If our physical bodies exist in 4 dimensions then there are at least 10 dimensions available for the spiritual realm to occupy. Since all these dimensions exist as co-planer, they all exist in the same "space" at the same "time" for lack of a better description. This would mean that God does not need to cross any boundaries as God exists in all dimensions so He is always present.

Is that not the extra-dimensional diety as presented by Hugh Ross in Beyond the Cosmos? I found it very difficult to understand, which was only made more difficult by WLC's criticism of the model. When all was said and done, it seemed to create more problems than it solved, particularly in terms of basic doctrine.

 

[Lovejoy]

God said,...let there be, and there was.

Yeah. I like the quote from N. Joseph Torchia, as he was discussing early Christian thinkers. In all their work "we find a well-defined ontological distinction between God and matter," and that for each, "God is the unbegotten, ultimate causal principle for everything which exists." I, personally, think it is much more important for Christians to remember that God is the causal force behind creation, and not a part of the creation. That is, we need to be doctrinally correct on that matter, and not waste breath (and credibility) fighting with particulars of physics. Cosmology is a huge part of my apologetics, but I don't want to use my perceptions of Gods creative act to attempt to reform science, like Pratt did with Mormonism and Newtons laws. Or, worse, when they brought God down into the created universe to attempt to align their cosmology with what seemed obvious at the time (the universe was static and eternal).

God caused the universe, and however He did it is fine by me. Though, I think he spoke the universe into creation causally (not temporally) prior to the instant of the Big Bang. But, then, I buy into neo-molinism, so what do I know?

EDIT: sorry for the off topic subject, but I have two kids screaming at me, and I don't even know what thread I am in.

 

[Persephone66]

I've been running this forum for 15 years now. I know exactly how these things go (heck we saw the same thing yesterday from the agnostic, atheist, camp just yesterday).

It goes something like this....

QUESTION: How do you make a peanut butter & jelly sandwich?

Christian: You take two slices of bread and spread peanut butter on one slice and jelly on the other. You place the two slices together with the peanut butter and jelly in the middle. You eat.

Agnostic/atheist: What do you mean by "make"? Are you asking how all the ingredients are actually made because you really are not making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich if you have peanut butter, jelly, and bread already in your possession. Or are you asking about the metaphysical aspects of what it means to be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because my college professor said that the notion of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich cannot be determined if... :blabla:

Christian: Nevermind. :sigh:

If I laughed, does that make me a bad atheist?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Is that not the extra-dimensional diety as presented by Hugh Ross in Beyond the Cosmos? I found it very difficult to understand, which was only made more difficult by WLC's criticism of the model. When all was said and done, it seemed to create more problems than it solved, particularly in terms of basic doctrine.

I have not read either Hugh Ross or WLC's criticism. I don't find it particularly problematic as with my engineering background the mathematical construct of multiple dimensions is not particularly daunting. But that is because the idea of mathematical dimensions carries a different meaning than some of the science-fiction idea of parallel dimensions.

Mathematical dimension are all orthogonal (perpendicular) to each other. Think of a 3-D graph. It has three axises x, y and z. Each one of these axises is perpendicular to the other two axises. It can be mathematically proven that the 13 dimension I mentioned earlier posses the same property. That is, any one axis is perpendicular to the other 12. (Don't try to envision it, it hurts the brain.) What all that gobelty-gook means is that the dimensions are related to each other and do not exists as separate or parallel dimensions. Seen through the mathematical definition of dimensions, there are no problems with any doctrines of the Christian faith.

 

[Sherman]

How did life come into existence: It right in the book of Genesis again.

And it depends on what form of life you are talking about. Lets talk about physical living things. The first living things--capable of growing and reproducing--plants were created on the Third Day. Birds and other flying animals and the creatures the live in the water were created on the Fifth Day. In the Sixth Day God created the land animals and the other creatures that live in land--including people.

Reference: Genesis 1: 11-31

 

[Lovejoy]

I have not read either Hugh Ross or WLC's criticism. I don't find it particularly problematic as with my engineering background the mathematical construct of multiple dimensions is not particularly daunting. But that is because the idea of mathematical dimensions carries a different meaning than some of the science-fiction idea of parallel dimensions.

Mathematical dimension are all orthogonal (perpendicular) to each other. Think of a 3-D graph. It has three axises x, y and z. Each one of these axises is perpendicular to the other two axises. It can be mathematically proven that the 13 dimension I mentioned earlier posses the same property. That is, any one axis is perpendicular to the other 12. (Don't try to envision it, it hurts the brain.) What all that gobelty-gook means is that the dimensions are related to each other and do not exists as separate or parallel dimensions. Seen through the mathematical definition of dimensions, there are no problems with any doctrines of the Christian faith.

It was not the notion of extra dimensions, I think eveyone involved was keen on that. It was the notion that God literally existed in them. I think it had something to do with Ross claiming that God lived in the upper dimensions, and Craig showing that (due to Minkowksi space) God had to live in all if He lived in some. As such, to claim that God inhabited upper dimensions was to claim that He also inhabited these, which quickly took transcendance and reduced it to a God that could be found with space ships or tricorders (or something). Anyways, reducing God to a spacial object that is simply undetectable to our senses seemed to anger Craig, but the concept seemed to solve the proximity and invisibility issues for Ross.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It was not the notion of extra dimensions, I think eveyone involved was keen on that. It was the notion that God literally existed in them. I think it had something to do with Ross claiming that God lived in the upper dimensions, and Craig showing that (due to Minkowksi space) God had to live in all if He lived in some. As such, to claim that God inhabited upper dimensions was to claim that He also inhabited these, which quickly took transcendance and reduced it to a God that could be found with space ships or tricorders (or something). Anyways, reducing God to a spacial object that is simply undetectable to our senses seemed to anger Craig, but the concept seemed to solve the proximity and invisibility issues for Ross.

I think that God does exist in all of the dimensions. He is, after all, near to us. But as to what a multiple dimensional being would actually look like if viewed from any other dimension, I don't think we can even begin to conceive of such a thing. That is why God could appear as a burning bush or a pillar of smoke or a column of fire.

 

[Nick M]

God did it

Thanks for making a post I don't have to mock.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If I laughed, does that make me a bad atheist?

Of course not, we can still laugh together can't we?