toldailytopic: Generally speaking, are the stories in the Bible literal or symbolic?

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taikoo

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What number could the text have presented in order for it to be accurate to you? He built a basin that was 10 cubits across and 30 cubits circumference. If the text would have said 31 cubits in circumference, it would still be inaccurate. If it would have said 31.4159 cubits in circumference, it would still be inaccurate.

So what would the text be required to say in order to pass your test for accuracy?

Furthermore, is it possible that you're not thinking correctly about it? Is it possible that the circumference could actually be exactly 30 cubits, and the span from brim to brim be exactly 10 cubits, if the span was measured from inside brim to inside brim? Afterall, the thickness of it was a handbreadth (I Kings 7:26), so is it possible that the numbers ARE accurate and you just haven't thought of that possibility?

Thanks,
Randy

One possibility I had not thought of was presented to me by a guy who was trying to convert me. HE said that the explanation was that the y used a different cubit for diameter and circumference! And they varied by just the right amount. This was presented as fact, not conjecture btw.

Obviously there is no way to use cubits or any other measure, nor to build anything so as to achieve the number Pi, and so the measurements given are only approximate, to some unknown degree of accuracy.

It only a problem for people who want to take the bible as exactly literally true in all details. Like the 2 different cubits guy.
 

nicholsmom

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so are bible stories 'rounded off" instead of literal?

I liked chickenman's explanation best. But "rounded-off" is fine by me, and not a test at all of the veracity nor the literal nature of the text. It is a silly thing to bicker about, imo.
 

kmoney

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I'd rather look like a naive child in heaven, having believed that God has feathers by which He protects and comforts me, than being cast from His presence because I appeared smart on earth teaching others that the rocks reveal a multi-million year old earth or dispute a global flood.

You could look at it that way. OR, perhaps God wouldn't actually cast someone out for using their minds and going where the evidence seems to lead. :think:

I like that one better. :plain:
 

nicholsmom

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One possibility I had not thought of was presented to me by a guy who was trying to convert me. HE said that the explanation was that the y used a different cubit for diameter and circumference! And they varied by just the right amount. This was presented as fact, not conjecture btw.

Obviously there is no way to use cubits or any other measure, nor to build anything so as to achieve the number Pi, and so the measurements given are only approximate, to some unknown degree of accuracy.

It only a problem for people who want to take the bible as exactly literally true in all details. Like the 2 different cubits guy.

Are you arguing with chickenman or this other guy??
 

kmoney

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Generally speaking........it falls to individual interpretation and literary analysis when determining what one believes to be symbolic, and what one believes to be literal.

The easiest determining factor for symbolism for me in the Old Testament is:
Does this same kind of story appear in other cultures as a means of explaining a current condition, either of humanity or the world?

Examples:
Creation
the Flood
the Tower of Babel

The wording in these stories (no matter which translation you use) mirrors the word choice of similar stories in other myth systems, though the qualities that make them unique demonstrate the priorities of of the civilization in which they arose.

Almost every ancient civilization had a creation story.
Several middle-eastern cultures have worldwide flood stories.
Etc etc.

The early parts of Genesis seem to focus on "this is why things are the way they are," and thus use symbols and an unspoken "way back in time before any of us were around" to convey mystical explanations of the human condition, etc.
Plus these stories were handed down orally, so focusing on a few memorable symbols to aid in memorization (the talking snake, the forbidden fruit, the flood, the tower to heaven) makes sense.

On the other side, the wording of the stories of Abraham and his progeny, of Moses and the exodus, and of the kings of Israel and Judah read more like documentaries, presumably because the facts are the most important thing being recorded. "Who did what when" is more important in these accounts, especially as they describe interactions with God, than some kind of generation-spanning morality tale. Not to say morality doesn't play a big part in the Old Testament histories, but the focus is on showing how real individuals failed to live up to God's calling to be His people.

The Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon are packed with symbols, but they serve different purposes.
Conjuring emotions, analogies, allegories, etc. are all potential uses for the symbols contained in these books, and it really comes down to each symbol's context as to what the author is trying to do.

For the New Testament, I don't treat any of the accounts of Jesus' life strictly as symbolism, though many of the events in the other gospels could be treated symbolically, even while believing them to be literal events, and John's gospel has a much more symbolic slant. He seems to have been trying to describe the larger truths surrounding Jesus and his life and ministry rather than writing a simple biography.

Acts reads like documentary, and the letters of Paul and the other apostles seem to be part instruction manual, part love letter, part philosophical treatise.
There is symbolism in the letters, but it is used to illustrate spiritual and moral points.

Revelation....sigh. Tonload of symbolism, especially involving the cultural symbols of the time. Given that one set of interpretations of the symbolism has already happened (the Roman Empire stuff) and that another set of interpretations has yet to happen, it remains to be seen how much of John's writing was literal (but limited to the vocabulary of the time) or symbolic (drawing on the emotions of the images rather than the images themselves).

Good post. Need to spread rep.
 

kmoney

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So, really, all of the Bible ought to be read "literally" according to the genre being read, using the standard rules of grammar, having a decent understanding of the history and how that affects both grammar and original meaning, and remembering that faith requires that we attribute co-authorship of each book to God so that nothing contradicts unnecessarily nor has error that a perfect and omnipotent God can prevent.

Great! So now we just have to all agree on what genres the various books and stories are. :think:

:chuckle:
 

nicholsmom

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If you round, it isn't pi.

"Precise" and "literal" aren't the same thing :nono:

If the circumference was the measure of the interior of the bath, then the span across the interior of the bath would be (approximately) 9.55 cubits. And if the span was the measure of the exterior, then the walls of the basin would be (approximately) .45 cubits thick, which is (approximately) 9.14 inches or about a man's handbreadth :think: That sounds familiar...
 

nicholsmom

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Great! So now we just have to all agree on what genres the various books and stories are. :think:

:chuckle:

Basic literary analysis to determine genre is easy peasy, kmo. Only someone who wants to read the Bible subjectively would get it wrong.
 

kmoney

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Basic literary analysis to determine genre is easy peasy, kmo. Only someone who wants to read the Bible subjectively would get it wrong.

Everyone reads the bible subjectively. Subjectivity is all we have as humans.

And certain things are fairly easy, I would agree, but then there are some quite heated debates on other passages.

An easy example is the creation story.

EDIT: by easy example I didn't mean an example of an easy passage to figure out. I meant an easy example of a passage that has widespread disagreement. I worded that poorly. :eek:
 

taikoo

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I liked chickenman's explanation best. But "rounded-off" is fine by me, and not a test at all of the veracity nor the literal nature of the text. It is a silly thing to bicker about, imo.



not sure where literal leaves off and veracity begins, but something like the tower of babel or noahs ark leave the veracity way behind somewhere.
 
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