What do you think it means, then?
toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
The "torment" in question is being burned to death in fire and brimstone for whatever allotted time is given, ending in everlasting effect, the destruction of both body and soul in hell. "Punish" is easier to understand casually, and my preferred versions use it, but it is not that difficult to figure out.
"Eternal life" is pretty self explanatory. It means live forever, like the angels and those who are found worthy and children of God. It would be required if one is to suffer eternally, but it is never given to the lost.
I didn't ask you what you thought "eternal life" meant.
Actually, Satan was denying what God said. God told Adam that he would die if he sinned. Satan told Adam that he could sin and not die. Adam sinned and death came into the world. Now you are claiming that a person who sins will live forever (in hell). That's the same lie all dressed up in religious clothing.
Here's what the Bible says in Psalm 1:6 the way of the ungodly will perish. And in Psalm 37:20 the wicked shall perish. And Psalm 37:10 the wicked shall be no more. That's the opposite of the view that the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured.
I'm just repeating what the bible says. It's up to you whether you accept or reject it.
this really comes down to what you want
you should get an attaboy
if
you want everyone saved
but
this seems to deny reality
the reality of evil people
on the other hand
it says a lot about you
if
you want them to suffer forever
and
that can't be good
you should get an attaboy
if
you want everyone saved
but
this seems to deny reality
the reality of evil people
on the other hand
it says a lot about you
if
you want them to suffer forever
and
that can't be good
GuitarKidd
New member
I like how Greg Boyd puts it in one of his essays.
Now, Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed. - See more at: http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/#sthash.hVNRo6dx.dpuf
Here is the link to the entire article. I have read it several times and need to read it more so that I can have a better grasp on it. Greg make some very good arguments and cements a pretty decent case for Annihilationism.
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/
Now, Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed. - See more at: http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/#sthash.hVNRo6dx.dpuf
Here is the link to the entire article. I have read it several times and need to read it more so that I can have a better grasp on it. Greg make some very good arguments and cements a pretty decent case for Annihilationism.
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/
Thanks for sharing. He makes sense to me.
What do you think it means, because that is an awfully simple question? You must be getting at something.
The life we receive that is eternal is His life, when exchanged for our own. A new life, as a new creation. It does not simply mean that our souls live forever, or that our new bodies do as well [though they do, it isn't that simple]. The gift of God that is eternal life is life in Him, which is much, much more than simple existence. Before redemption we were in a state of death, as the Scriptures tell us. That same state of death is one in which those who are never redeemed remain. And it becomes even more so a state of death when they pass from this plane into Hell, and then again more when they are emptied into the Lake of Fire, aka the second death. They go into an eternal state of death which is the opposite of the state of life in which we will be in Heaven.
The fate that awaits them is the very same fate Jesus suffered, the one He suffered so we would not have to. If Jesus did not suffer annihilation then how can you argue that the unbelievers will? They will suffer no more than He did, except that they suffer it eternally as a result of their rejection of what He suffered for them.
While I believe in neither, Christian Universalism makes more sense than Annihilation.
While eternal life is certainly more than
simply surviving, it does not logically follow that not having eternal life includes surviving. Those who do not have eternal life will not live forever in hell being tortured. They can't. They don't have eternal life.
Second point. Annihilationism doesn't teach that Jesus was "annihilated". We say that He died on the cross and this death was real. He was not alive while He was dead. He returned to life when He became alive again. And the same thing will happen to His followers. But those who reject Him will not receive the gift of eternal life. They will perish and not have eternal life. This is what the Bible says.
simply surviving, it does not logically follow that not having eternal life includes surviving. Those who do not have eternal life will not live forever in hell being tortured. They can't. They don't have eternal life.
Second point. Annihilationism doesn't teach that Jesus was "annihilated". We say that He died on the cross and this death was real. He was not alive while He was dead. He returned to life when He became alive again. And the same thing will happen to His followers. But those who reject Him will not receive the gift of eternal life. They will perish and not have eternal life. This is what the Bible says.
Agreed so far.
Totally lost me. Eternal "death" by your description would require eterrnal life, which I don't see given to the lost. See the passages in my first post on topic. They will die like animals, be dead, turned to ashes, vanish as smoke, be destroyed. Where do all those passages go? What do they mean?
Timotheos said:
I don't see that at all.
Lighthouse said:
I don't either. Assuming the Bible is correct and means what the words in it says...Since the wages of sin is death, sinners do not live forever in Hell being tortured. If sinners have their sins forgiven, then they can live forever, I don't see any evidence that those who reject God will have their sins forgiven, if they did, then perhaps Universalism is possible. But people being given eternal life so that they can spend it in Hell being tortured? There is no evidence for that.
So while I don't agree with either the doctrine of Universalism or Eternal Torturism, Universalism makes more sense than Torturism.
PS, next scripture passage proving that those who reject God are destroyed and not kept preserved forever in Hell being tortured:
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
The souls of those who shrink back to destruction are not kept preserved in Hell for torture. They are destroyed, just as the Bible says. Only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will receive the gift of eternal life.
so it's ok with you guys if God tortures the unsaved for an unspecified amount of time, just so long as it's not eternal? :kookoo:
What is "okay with me" is irrelevant. I told you just exactly what the Bible says.
And I never said that God tortures anyone.
So its okay with you if people are tortured forever or for less than forever as long as someone gets tortured?:kookoo::kookoo:
GuitarKidd
New member
Read my post earlier that cites Greg Boyd.
Now, Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed. - See more at: http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-f....hVNRo6dx.dpuf
Here is the link to the entire article. I have read it several times and need to read it more so that I can have a better grasp on it. Greg make some very good arguments and cements a pretty decent case for Annihilationism.
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/
No. I believe that the punishment for sin is death. There are some who believe this includes some torture, agony or whatever. I believe the lost will be angry and sorrowful (hence the weeping and tooth gnashing), but they won't be tormented prior to their executions. As always, I'm open to scriptural correction on this point. I feel its minor compared to the gulf between your doctrine and mine.
:doh:
The "life" in "eternal life" is not simply existence. So "eternal death" would not require "eternal life."
If that's what the Bible says then maybe someone will be able to provide the Scripture?Thanks Timotheos
I have one for my side:
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
-1 Peter 3:18-19
So, His flesh was dead but His Spirit remained, separated from the Father, while He preached to the spirits in prison.
Then there is this:
Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
-Acts 2:30-31
And also this:
Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
-Ephesians 4:8-10
Because Christ was resurrected it makes more sense to believe those in Hell will also one day be resurrected than to believe they will be annihilated.