toldailytopic: Drill baby, drill. Should the US government lift drilling restrictions

some other dude

New member
But as a nation we have needed to be developing a hydrogen energy cycle ....


Show us that you have an iota of understanding about this and aren't just repeating a leftist mantra you heard somewhere, as eemee is wont to do.

Describe what you think the hydrogen energy cycle is.

Describe the challenges needed to be overcome in order for it to be a viable replacement for petroleum.

Describe what you think the ultimate energy cost will be once hydrogen is implemented, with regard to petroleum. For instance, will the same energy equivalent of hydrogen cost more or less than gasoline?
 

PureX

Well-known member
All good questions.
Describe what you think the hydrogen energy cycle is.
Almost all of the energy on the Earth comes from the sun. Plants photosynthesize sunlight to grow. Then they die, rot, are steamed and pressurized and become oil. We burn the oil to retrieve the energy for our use. BUT, there is only so much oil, and burning it is very bad for our environment. So this is a poor method catching, storing, and using the sun's energy.

An ideal method would be to somehow capture and use sunlight directly. But so far this has not proven a viable possibility, except for very low energy needs.

A good viable possibility, however, is a hydrogen energy cycle. Hydrogen is very abundant, It can easily be extracted from lots of other energy collectors (oil, gas, natural gas, coal, decomposing vegetation, algae, salt water, even from human garbage). It can be burned cleanly if necessary to extract it's energy, but does not have to be. It can be introduced into a hydrogen fuel cell where the electrons can be "borrowed" to do work while the hydrogen is recombined with oxygen to produce clean water as a byproduct.

So ideally a hydrogen energy cycle would work something like this: hydrogen is produced or extracted by one or several bio/electrical processes. For example, salt water could be pumped through a vast array of solar panels, which would use the photovoltaic energy from the sunlight to produce electrolysis in the salt water, thus separating it into hydrogen and oxygen molecules. The hydrogen we collect, and the oxygen we let go free into the atmosphere.

The hydrogen is now our storage mechanism (as oil is, today). Any machine that requires energy to operate, would carry a hydrogen fuel supply, and use the flow of electrons in the hydrogen as it recombines with oxygen (via a fuel cell membrane) to become water. Hydrogen and oxygen in, water and electricity out. No pollutants, no drilling and spilling, just sunlight and water going into the system to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then the recombination of these two elements to retrieve the energy and the water on the other end. Or if we don't use electrolysis to create hydrogen, we could use bio-methods, like algae farms, where the algae convert the sunlight into hydrogen for us.

We can do all these things, now. But we need to make the processes more efficient, and perhaps explore other methods, too. Hydrogen is very abundant, all we need to do is find ways of extracting and or producing a lot of it.

Describe the challenges needed to be overcome in order for it to be a viable replacement for petroleum.
We already have most of the technology. What we lack is the efficiency, and scale needed to produce enough hydrogen to satisfy our energy needs.

We also need to study safe containers for the hydrogen. We already have the "explosion" problem beat but we need some way of further compressing the hydrogen into smaller containers.

We also need a whole new energy distribution system. We need places where we can go to purchase hydrogen, and that can full up fuel tanks of many different sizes and designs.

And obviously, we will need to redesign many of our machines so that they can be powered by hydrogen fuel cells.
Describe what you think the ultimate energy cost will be once hydrogen is implemented, with regard to petroleum. For instance, will the same energy equivalent of hydrogen cost more or less than gasoline?
Well, the hydrogen is cheap. As I said, it's everywhere. So really the cost will be about the cost of production/extraction and distribution. These will all depend on the usual market forces. It's difficult to predict. But with proper competition, it shouldn't need to be particularly expensive.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
...the price inevitably will go sky-high (i.e. it will make 2008 look like a walk in the park), and who knows what will happen then?
Minimum wage is partially [if not mostly] responsible for the price increase.
 

eameece

New member
Are you referring to global warming? Don't you think burning coal has more impact?

They both have major impact. We need to convert now from fossil fuels to solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, workable biofuels and other alternatives.

Well, maybe throw in some dinosaur flatulence for good measure. And hot air from conservatives and climate science deniers and their Republican political spokesmen and apologists on TOL. That amount of heat could drive a lot of turbines! :rotfl:
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Why would minimum wage affect global prices?
I didn't say it did. But, actually, it very well may. By devaluing our own dollar we make it worth less to other countries, causing their products to cost us more of our money. But they also look at us when working on the value of their money, and economic policy. If they think something sounds like a good idea they look into it, and if they continue to like it they implement it, and then their money is devalued if the policy fails them.

I think the light in your lighthouse has burned out.
Just because you can't see doesn't mean the light isn't on, it only means you are blind.
 

gsweet

New member
Why's this gotta be just about oil? We consume other stuff, ya know...:shut:

FYI, peak oil is kind of a silly idea. The more we consume, the higher the demand. The higher the demand, the more oil companies will be willing to invest in technology to extract/refine product that is harder to grab with current tech. That means exploration for deeper and/or less ideal sources (e.g., oil sands) becomes tenable, financially speaking. That said, we as consumers take the brunt of fiscal sword: given the option of raising product prices or absorbing the additional cost of new technology, I'm willing to bet I know which direction oil companies will take. In an immediate sense (as well as long term), opening up more Fed land for exploratory drilling isn't going to do us much good. It might stave off the inevitable price increase for a decade or two, but it won't solve any issues. I would say lift the ban with a stipulation: (a) that all oil extracted from US soil be sold to the US at a pre-determined price, or (b) there is a flat tax on whatever profit is made by oil companies on that oil, and it is immediately invested (somehow? someway? haven't really thought this out) in alternative energy sources specifically for the US.

wow...been a while since I've been on here...half year or so? whew, life's busy!
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
And we aren't addicted to oil any more than we are addicted to air.
So....I guess pretty darn addicted. So much so we'd die without it. :shocked:

And drilling our own oil has nothing to do with developing alternative power sources. Its not an either/or propostion. We can and should do both.
It's not necessarily either/or, but in reality dependence on oil has prevented other sources of energy from getting a focus.

And . . . I've run out of things.
Just like we'll run out of oil eventually. :eek:
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Yes, but we ought not give out waivers for safety systems like we did in the BP spill.
Haven't you heard? All regulations are EBIL!!! Companies would *never* do something that would compromise safety or the environment, so we need to get rid of those pesky regulations pronto.

And we aren't addicted to oil any more than we are addicted to air.
"Air" regenerates through normal biological processes. Oil does not.

Oil's going to run out?:rotfl:
Oil is a nonrenewable resource. The earth is not infinite. The difference between demand and supply will eventually become large enough we'll be forced to seek other sources, if we haven't severely damaged our society before then.

Why's this gotta be just about oil? We consume other stuff, ya know...:shut:
Yeah, Natural Gas, Coal, Uranium what's that?

FYI, peak oil is kind of a silly idea. The more we consume, the higher the demand. The higher the demand, the more oil companies will be willing to invest in technology to extract/refine product that is harder to grab with current tech. That means exploration for deeper and/or less ideal sources (e.g., oil sands) becomes tenable, financially speaking.
That's all true but there's still a finite number of sources. Peak oil as a concept takes into account yet to be discovered and (to some degree) currently uneconomic sources of oil.

The ultimate problem, of course, will be price. Eventually oil will be too expensive to use for many of the things we currently use it. This will probably happen long before we actually "run out".

I would say lift the ban with a stipulation: (a) that all oil extracted from US soil be sold to the US at a pre-determined price, or (b) there is a flat tax on whatever profit is made by oil companies on that oil, and it is immediately invested (somehow? someway? haven't really thought this out) in alternative energy sources specifically for the US.
Sounds great. Probably politically untenable though. Those companies just have to keep making giant profits! How dare we interfere in that "free market"! :chuckle:

wow...been a while since I've been on here...half year or so? whew, life's busy!
Good to see you. :)
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
So....I guess pretty darn addicted. So much so we'd die without it. :shocked:
I just think its a dumb thing to say. Its an emotional appeal to make use of oil feel icky.

It's not necessarily either/or, but in reality dependence on oil has prevented other sources of energy from getting a focus.
True, but it doesn't have to be, although they say necessity is the mother of invention. But I'm not sure simply legislating away our oil use will work.

Haven't you heard? All regulations are EBIL!!! Companies would *never* do something that would compromise safety or the environment, so we need to get rid of those pesky regulations pronto.
Yeah, somewhere there's a happy medium between not drilling and and the BP oil spill.

"Air" regenerates through normal biological processes. Oil does not.
Well yeah, but that has nothing to do with us being addicted to it or not. I just think its a dumb thing to say. Its spin. Fine, say we are addicted to air, but then it takes away the negative connotation implied when used with oil.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
I just think its a dumb thing to say. Its an emotional appeal to make use of oil feel icky.
Maybe we should feel icky. And even if it is an emotional appeal, that doesn't mean it isn't true.

True, but it doesn't have to be, although they say necessity is the mother of invention. But I'm not sure simply legislating away our oil use will work.
Will not work in what way?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
I just think its a dumb thing to say. Its an emotional appeal to make use of oil feel icky.
It should feel icky. It destroys the environment, not to mention human lives. Plus we've been buying it from people that aren't actually our friends, making our trade deficit worse. It doesn't do anything positive other than being cheap energy.

Yeah, somewhere there's a happy medium between not drilling and and the BP oil spill.
You mean, GASP, some level of regulation makes sense? Tell that to your buddies that want to eliminate the EPA and all other environmental regulation.

Well yeah, but that has nothing to do with us being addicted to it or not. I just think its a dumb thing to say. Its spin. Fine, say we are addicted to air, but then it takes away the negative connotation implied when used with oil.
It isn't spin. Saying it's comparable to being addicted to air is spin. We can't do anything about being "addicted to air". We don't have to be addicted to oil. We have a choice in investing in technologies to get us off of oil or waiting until oil becomes so expensive we have another economic crash and we have to buy technologies from countries that DID choose to invest.
 
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