toldailytopic: Burial vs. Cremation: does it matter what happens to your physical bod

[MaryContrary]

There is a third option; donate your body to science. There is much value in the good that can come of this. And at the end of generally two years, what remains is cremated and the ashes sent to the family if they so choose. And, I understand that it is completely free.

I very seriously considered this until I asked a doctor friend if he thought it was a good idea. He said yes, but he would never do it because he witnessed the disrespect shown. He added that he believed that the disrespect wasn't for the sake of disrespect but mostly a defense mechanism for young students/doctors to cope with the subject.

I'm still undecided.

:thumb:

This should have occurred to me to suggest, too. Glad you did!

And, yeah, my mother-in-law was adamant about not donating her body in that way, as she was an RN for a good, long time and saw much the same thing. But, again, I'll be gone and my body will be just a lump of dead meat for a while. Can't say I care what's done to it in the meantime. And if that disrespectful behavior toward the body I've left behind is helpful to get those folks through the traumatic things they have to get through (like, say, poking at dead bodies, natch) then I can't see getting all that upset about it.

Again, I'll be gone. I won't care. :idunno:

 

[MaryContrary]

More so with burning than have all my innards surgically removed before they box me up? I believe evisceration is SOP for burials...

Well, yeah. It's just a dead lump of meat then and those things have a purpose other than just scarring the body for aesthetics. And I'd argue that tattoos are, like all other forms of self-mutilation, least for aesthetics than for a sick, false, sense of control over oneself. It's just not a healthy (mentally or spiritually) thing to do.

Edit: Look, I'm not trying to inflate tattoos out to something they're not. They're not that big a deal, just worse than being cremated.

 

[Delmar]

I can't see taking up more space than a shoe box in the earth. The all powerful God almighty will not have a problem resurecting me like that any more than the bones of Simon bar Jonah which are long gone.

I agree with that 100%. I am not going to try and claim a piece of the earth, for the rest of eternity, so that the living can not use it.

 

[Cruciform]

Burial vs. Cremation: does it matter what happens to your physical body after you die?

Yes, it matters profoundly:


CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

2300 The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy; it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit.

2301 ...The Church permits cremation, provided that it does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body.​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Breathe]

I feel like it would be selfish of me to take up space on the Earth for my dead carcass. I don't even like funerals, where dead people oblige the living to 'commemorate' them. To me, it seems like they're making demands even from the grave. And I like the idea that the material that I am made of will get reused and become other things. So I prefer, and believe it to be somewhat a better moral choice, to be cremated and the ashes scattered back into the universe from which my body came. Burn my carcass, scatter the ashes, and then forget about me. Enjoy your lives.

That's how I feel about death.

This is what I have told my family. I don't want them to feel obligated to visit a grave, bring flowers, etc. If you think of me, remember me with love and laughter. But let me go.

 

[MaryContrary]

The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection.

"Should be", sure. Why "must be"?

The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy;

How so? Mercy to whom? They're dead.

...it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Okay. Why is this important?

The Church permits cremation, provided that it does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body.

How would it do that?

Yes, it matters profoundly:

I think the Catholic Church makes much of little here. :idunno:

 

[Cruciform]

"Should be", sure. Why "must be"?

It's stated later: Because the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

How so? Mercy to whom? They're dead.

Mercy toward the deceased and their families. The body is just as much "the person" as is the soul, both of which will be reunited at the resurrection. Thus, the body is always to be treated in light of the hope of the resurrection.

Okay. Why is this important?

You don't know why it's important to honor the temple of the Holy Spirit?

How would it do that?

For example, an atheist being cremated as an expression of the belief that the body will merely return to and remain dust like an animal---with no hope of resurrection---would be an illigitimate use of cremation.

I think the Catholic Church makes much of little here.

Yes, I imagine that it's a little hard to grasp without an adequate understanding of the Catholic doctrine of the human person. It's important to understand that the human body is just as intrinsic to the individual as is the human soul---that's why God intends to resurrect the body and reunite it with the soul at the end of time. The hope of the resurrection demonstrates the profound value and worth of the body, as does the fact that God himself chose to take on a physical human body in the Incarnation (Jn. 1:14). Hence, your body is just as much "you" as is your soul. The two form an indivisible unity. The body, therefore, must be treated with due respect.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Dena]

Yes, it matters profoundly:


CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

2300 The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy; it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit.

2301 ...The Church permits cremation, provided that it does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body.​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Judaism places a high emphasis on dead bodies too. Maybe because we're not focused on the life after this? Caring for the dead is consider a great mitzvah because they cannot pay you back. You do it purly for them without the expectation for anything in return.

 

[MaryContrary]

It's stated later: Because the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Was, though. Was the temple. Now it's a dead body.

Mercy toward the deceased and their families. The body is just as much "the person" as is the soul, both of which will be reunited at the resurrection. Thus, the body is always to be treated in light of the hope of the resurrection.

Ah, that make sense.

You don't know why it's important to honor the temple of the Holy Spirit?

Was, though. The mercy thing above makes sense to me. This doesn't, though.

For example, an atheist being cremated as an expression of the belief that the body will merely return to and remain dust like an animal---with no hope of resurrection---would be an illigitimate use of cremation.

That seems then like a caveat thrown in to avoid accusations of having approved such a thing. But, okay, I guess.

Yes, I imagine that it's a little hard to grasp without an adequate understanding of the Catholic doctrine of the human person. It's important to understand that the human body is just as intrinsic to the individual as is the human soul---that's why God intends to resurrect the body and reunite it with the soul at the end of time. The hope of the resurrection demonstrates the profound value and worth of the body, as does the fact that God himself chose to take on a physical human body in the Incarnation. Hence, your body is just as much "you" as is your soul. The two form an indivisible unity. The body, therefore, must be treated with due respect.

I disagree with this whole thing. The body is pretty consistently regarded as corrupt throughout scripture. To the point that we're promised it will be raised, changed, made perfect one day. I don't see it, in a corrupt state, being worthy of this level of respect. I don't suggest making little of it or spurning it, merely recognizing it as worth little without the soul. No more or less important than any other corrupt matter. So, again, the Catholic Church seems to make much of little here.

Understand, please, that I've had to learn respect and appreciation for the human body in the last few years. I didn't before, at all. I was extremely self-destructive and abusing my body was a large part of that. But in developing that I've also had to develop a reasonable appreciation for it as well. That is, not granting it greater esteem than it required. So I don't want to convey despite for it here in the attempt to keep it in it's proper place in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Psalmist]

toldailytopic: Burial vs. Cremation: does it matter what happens to your physical body after you die?​

I have a bit of experience with this...funeral director, retired.

It's a personal choice whether to be cremated or buried. It's the choice of a final disposition. Whatever your choice, get it in writing, plan ahead, don't leave that decision to your loved ones, especially in an at need situation, get it in writing. I know, "They'll know what to do," but do they? I've dealt with families who didn't know or have a clue, find out go to a funeral home, ask question, get the real McCoy truth, it's worth it. What can you afford, what would you want.

Remember this, guilt and "Don't you want the best" play into the hands of the funeral arranger, because we want the best, whatever is done how cheap or costly doesn't make the deceased any deader or safer from whatever the survivors think the deceased needs to be safe from.

Some say that's the way (cremation or burial) our family has always done it, and if it's good enough for our family it's good enough for me.

With either choice embalming is only required when there is a viewing and visitation or shipping the deceased out of state, other wise that is a personal choice, and for direct cremation or direct burial as well as natural burial it is a waste of money.

So far as the deceased is concerned it matters not, most families or POA's will follow the wishes of the deceased because it written in a will or pre-arranged funeral plan, or out of respect for the deceased as a loved one or friend. Some will not cremate because of religious beliefs do allow it, or private order doesn't approve of it, for those burial is the only option.

Cremation, cremation cost is least, after gathering the proper papers and permits for the crematorium, cremation requires only a wooden box or suitable corrugated cardboard box, however the people have used the finest wooden casket for cremation. The cremation oven uses natural gas and is heated to 2100 to 2700 degrees, cremation takes about 2-3 hours. When the cremation is complete, the gray ash and bones must be separated from any casket hardware and charred and wood ash as much as possible, the catch tray ash and bone is then poured into a pulverizer so as to break down the bones and bone fragments even more, then if there are large bone fragments and pieces remaining they are broken down down with a hammer. The ash and bone fragments are the placed into an urn with and identification tag and sealed. Believe me they do not get all of the ash and bone fragments in the urn.

Scattering cremated remains, permission has to obtained, scattered cremated remains after a rainstorm and drying out will be come like concrete hard and gray. Or there is putting cremated remains in an ossuary, and ossuary is like big barrel that the cremated remains are poured into and co-mingled with other cremated remains that have been poured into the ossuary barrel. When the barrel is full is is hauled away and dumped elsewhere, and the ossuary barrel is returned to be filled again.

Cremation is clean and efficient, and low cost for the basic service. Cremation is no more evil than leaving people who die along the way who get no proper final disposition.

Remember, it's a personal choice.​

 

[Cruciform]

Was, though. Was the temple. Now it's a dead body.

It's a body with the hope of resurrection and glorification at the end of time, and forever thereafter. This is what the body is, even though temporarily apart from the soul.

I disagree with this whole thing. The body is pretty consistently regarded as corrupt throughout scripture.

Then again, so is the soul, which is just as "fallen" as the body. In short, the two are "in this together."

To the point that we're promised it will be raised, changed, made perfect one day.

The soul is promised renewal and restoration as well.

I don't see it, in a corrupt state, being worthy of this level of respect. I don't suggest making little of it or spurning it, merely recognizing it as worth little without the soul. No more or less important than any other corrupt matter.

Your comments here approach an ancient heresy known as gnosticism, which held that the spirit (immaterial/metaphysical) was "good" or "more real," while the body (material/physical) was seen as "bad" or "less real." But this is in no way a Christian notion of the human person.

For Christians, both spirit/soul and body are created by God, who made the material world (including the human body) and called it "good" (Gen. 1:31). The fall of humanity brought a measure of moral and material corruption into the world, but this did not remove the inherent goodness of God's creation. So the "soul=good/ body=bad" model is simply contrary to a Christian understanding of humanity, and should not be reflected in our treatment of the human body as God's good creation.

God values our bodies enough to resurrect and glorify them along with our souls as the final preparation for heaven. Who are we to value them any less?

So, again, the Catholic Church seems to make much of little here.

Given what's been observed above, I simply have to disagree.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[MaryContrary]

It's a body with the hope of resurrection and glorification at the end of time, and forever thereafter. This is what the body is, even though temporarily apart from the soul.


Then again, so is the soul, which is just as "fallen" as the body. In short, the two are "in this together."


The soul is promised renewal and restoration as well.


Your comments here approach an ancient heresy known as gnosticism, which held that the spirit (immaterial/metaphysical) was "good" or "more real," while the body (material/physical) was seen as "bad" or "less real." But this is in no way a Christian notion of the human person.

For Christians, both spirit/soul and body are created by God, who made the material world (including the human body) and called it "good" (Gen. 1:31). The fall of humanity brought a measure of moral and material corruption into the world, but this did not remove the inherent goodness of God's creation. So the "soul=good/ body=bad" model is simply contrary to a Christian understanding of humanity, and should not be reflected in our treatment of the human body as God's good creation.

God values our bodies enough to resurrect and glorify them along with our souls as the final preparation for heaven. Who are we to value them any less?


Given what's been observed above, I simply have to disagree.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Okay, hold on. Are our souls not now renewed and restored in Christ?

 

[Psalmist]

toldailytopic: Burial vs. Cremation: does it matter what happens to your physical body after you die?​

I have a bit of experience in this...funeral director, retired.

Burial the most traditional of all final dispositions.

Like cremation it is a personal choice, get it in writing, don't leave these arrangements (whatever they are) to chance, funeral service professionals are good with grief and guilt, you want the best, and getting tacit agreement, tacit the silent nod of the head, which is suggesting an implied idea but not expressed.

Most families are more comfortable with burial. With burial embalming is only required for a service that is chosen that requires embalming, as for embalming it is what it is. With the add-on's for the service chosen and the burial cost, it can get expensive. Ask yourself what would I want.

Burial has sort of final way of saying the family is okay with it, and they have seen it to the end with a bit of relief. There are simple graveside services, and the ornate services. As in a previous, whatever is chosen doesn't make the deceased any deader or safer from whatever once the are in the ground. Some buried caskets in vaults have been known crack and leak water into them,even at six feet under.

There is also direct burial, no embalming and no service; and the is natural burial, which is no embalming, and only a container that is suitable for natural deterioration, a pine box with a minimum of nails, a corrugated cardboard box, or a canvas wrapping. Natural burial requires no vault, since the natural cemetery is just that natural.

It's a personal choice, choose wisely. As for making any difference between burial and cremation, both work, both accomplish the same thing, a final resting place whether in a cemetery, mausoleum, marble urn on the shelf or buried in the cremation garden of a cemetery.​

 

[Cruciform]

Okay, hold on. Are our souls not now renewed and restored in Christ?

Not completely, no, which is evidenced in the fact that we still commit sins. Neither our souls nor our bodies will be fully renewed and restored until we are glorified at the end of time.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Psalmist]

I need to make a clarification.

Though at times I have spoken with rancor about the funeral service profession that I was a part of, like any business there are those who give that business a bad name because of questionable practices, still I like what I did as an funeral arranger and funeral director, and funeral service officiant.

The best part for me was caring for the families, helping the family by taking care of their dead, and them helping the families with what needed to be done. It is the families that I like taking care of, showing compassion to them with kindness and a genuine concern.

Of the 150+ funerals I have officiated, I'm thankful I could make a difference for the families and individuals I served. Whether it has been the few babes and infants, or our own family members, to the many nursing home residents that I escorted from the funeral home to the cemetery, in officiating and caring for the family Jesus was first and foremost in bringing comfort to the bereaved and grief stricken.​

 

[BillyBob]

It doesn't matter to me whether you guys are buried or cremated.

 

[MrDeets]

Well, yeah. It's just a dead lump of meat then and those things have a purpose other than just scarring the body for aesthetics.

If its just a dead lump of meat one way or the other, my friend, why do you consider cremation to be more self mutilation than having a large incision made and all the organs ripped out??

And I'd argue that tattoos are, like all other forms of self-mutilation least for aesthetics than for a sick, false, sense of control over oneself.

Different thread. I would enjoy talking tattoos with someone who has at least half as much work(if not more) than I do.

It's just not a healthy (mentally or spiritually) thing to do.

Start a thread, and lets talk there!

Edit: Look, I'm not trying to inflate tattoos out to something they're not. They're not that big a deal, just worse than being cremated.

Again, prove it. OR- I can at least give you a leg to stand on.... tattoos happen while we are alive, and therefore are of more importance than what happens to our flesh after we croak.

 

[lightbringer]

Had listed myself as an organ donor many years ago, couldn't see good organs going to waist if some one is in need.

Assigned my body to medical research after the usable organs are removed, if it helps a young med student to become a better doctor, why not?

Final wishes was to be cremated and spread across a field, even ashes have some fertilizer qualities left in it.

Now that I'm pushing 65 and have past the age for organ donation, all that is reusable would be my corneas, bones and tissue if needed.

So, at least I'll be able to fertilize a few feet of earth....every one should wish to help in some way....well, unless selfishness prevents it.

 

[MrDeets]

Had listed myself as an organ donor many years ago, coldn't see good organs going to waist if some one is in need.

Assigned my body to medical research after the usable organs are removed, if it helps a young med student to become a better doctor, why not?

Final wishes was to be cremated and spread across a field, even ashes have some fertilizer qualities left in it.

Now that I'm pushing 65 and have past the age for organ donation, all that is reusable would be my corneas, bones and tissue if needed.

So, at least I'll be able to fertilize a few feet of earth....every one should wish to help in some way....well, unless selfishness prevents it.

I'm mildly shocked you're not going to be put aboard a little skiff with all your treasured possesions and a fine young virgin.... and then cremated. :chuckle:

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I don't care what happens to me. They can leave me in the morgue to rot, or sell my body to science. I don't see much point in being a burden to anybody after I'm dead.