toldailytopic: At what point does a person become a person?

[chrysostom]

babies are being killed
but
don't worry because they may not be a person yet
and
once we decide whether or not they are a person we will determine what a person is
so
we can decide what to do about it

 

[Stripe]

toldailytopic: At what point does a person become a person?

When he is first created. When he is first woven together. Yes, it is exactly then that he is a person.

 

[Stripe]

I have an established, vested right to my life. Any attempt to divest me of it without violative cause (the only recognized abrogation and one sponsored by my action) would be an offense against the principle of law that protects it. That is, you can't simply walk up and shoot me in my noggin because you're unconvinced of my humanity. In that we see the problem from the origin end of things. If you can't demonstrate the point of divestment then you can't, with any more honest and rational authority, make the case for vesting either. Now if we can't find the means to objectively vest or divest relative to the standard at law we are compelled to either recognize every point along my line or reject the foundation of the right and with it every point.

:thumb:

 

[Samstarrett]

Simple. Don't have an abortion.

Imagine if the dialogue had gone like this, as it might in another time or place:

Chrysostom: What is the best way to address the problem of the slave trade?

SOD: Simple. Don't buy a slave.

Or this:

Chrysostom: What is the best way to address the problem of all the Jews the Führer is killing?

SOD: Simple. Don't kill any Jews.

Or this:

Chrystostom: What is the best way to address the problem of child abuse?

SOD: Simple. Don't abuse your children.

Or this:

Chrysostom: What is the best way to address the problem of lynchings?

SOD: Simple. Don't lynch any blacks.

Shall I go on?

 

[chrysostom]

Simple...under law, execute those engaging in abortion the same way that other murderers are executed.

see sam's reply to sod

 

[mighty_duck]

It depends on what you consider "person" to mean.
Most in the pro-life camp think it means "a being with human DNA".

But we would be able to recognize a person even if he didn't have human DNA. If we discovered a previously unknown island with people on it who through years of isolation were no longer sexually compatible with humans (and biologically they may be considered a different species), we would still consider them persons if they behaved as we wold expect a human to behave.

In fiction, we have no problems recognizing talking cows as persons, or intelligent aliens etc.
Many religions have some form of angels or demons that are not human, yet are persons. Even God would fit that bill.

So why do we recognize them as persons? Because we recognize in them the properties we value - sentience, sapience, emotion, feelings, etc.
When do humans first acquire these properties? It develops over time, but most of it is not meaningful until higher brain activity has started.

 

[vegascowboy]

see sam's reply to sod

I saw it, but my response was a bit different, I believe.

I wasn't simply suggesting that we tell folks to stop having abortions and that will end the practice all together.

Nor do I believe that executing those guilty of performing this murderous act would stop people from having them all together.

I do believe, however, that it would be a good deterrent for people who are considering aborting a child.

In Saudia Arabia, people hesitate when they are considering theft since the punishment is so harsh and so quickly exacted. It doesn't stop it outright from every happening, but it makes people think twice (or three times or four times or...).

 

[some other dude]

Imagine if the dialogue had gone like this, as it might in another time or place:

Chrysostom: What is the best way to address the problem of the slave trade?

SOD: Simple. Don't buy a slave.

Or this:

Chrysostom: What is the best way to address the problem of all the Jews the Führer is killing?

SOD: Simple. Don't kill any Jews.

Or this:

Chrystostom: What is the best way to address the problem of child abuse?

SOD: Simple. Don't abuse your children.

Or this:

Chrysostom: What is the best way to address the problem of lynchings?

SOD: Simple. Don't lynch any blacks.

Shall I go on?

And in each case I have not only made a difference by refusing to act in an evil manner, but I have served as an example for others to folow. :thumb:

I can only regulate my own actions.

 

[some other dude]

It depends on what you consider "person" to mean.

How about Merriam-Webster?

 

[Granite]

I wasn't simply suggesting that we tell folks to stop having abortions and that will end the practice all together.

That's true...

Nor do I believe that executing those guilty of performing this murderous act would stop people from having them all together.

Ummmm, no. Getting into weird territory here...

I do believe, however, that it would be a good deterrent for people who are considering aborting a child.

What, that they might get their doctor killed? That might make someone think twice, sure. Or be twice as careful.

In Saudia Arabia, people hesitate when they are considering theft since the punishment is so harsh and so quickly exacted. It doesn't stop it outright from every happening, but it makes people think twice (or three times or four times or...).

Vegas, I don't think I need to point this out, but holding up anything the Saudis do in a favorable light is disconcerting.

 

[Samstarrett]

And in each case I have not only made a difference by refusing to act in an evil manner, but I have served as an example for others to folow. :thumb:

I can only regulate my own actions.

You've also implicitly refused to criminalize said actions. Of course we shouldn't have abortions and should tell others not to do so, but we shouldn't stop there, particularly as a society. Abortion ought to be treated as murder in law, just as killing any other person is.

EDIT: Except war, self-defense, capital punishment, of course.

 

[chrysostom]

And in each case I have not only made a difference by refusing to act in an evil manner, but I have served as an example for others to folow. :thumb:

I can only regulate my own actions.

so you don't bother to vote?

 

[vegascowboy]

Ummmm, no. Getting into weird territory here...

I can see how you would consider my statement "weird territory" if you haven't read my previous one (about which Chrys was commenting). I was suggesting that, under a law (which doesn't currently exist), people who abort babies should be executed. I don't mean to imply that people should take the matter into their own hands, especially if it means murdering someone themselves.

What, that they might get their doctor killed? That might make someone think twice, sure. Or be twice as careful.

Either way, I agree. If I knew that throwing a baseball out my window was an act punishable by death, I would be far less likely to do so.

Vegas, I don't think I need to point this out, but holding up anything the Saudis do in a favorable light is disconcerting.

Well, I'm not sure about that...er, maybe I am. :noid:

 

[Granite]

I was suggesting that, under a law (which doesn't currently exist), people who abort babies should be executed. I don't mean to imply that people should take the matter into their own hands, especially if it means murdering someone themselves.

Well I suppose that's a step in the right direction.

Either way, I agree. If I knew that throwing a baseball out my window was an act punishable by death, I would be far less likely to do so.

If all you want to do is coerce behavior, you can absolutely get results but no real change, not change in the heart. Trying to legislate abortion out of existence is one kind of goal, sure, but it certainly will never change the actual problem.

Well, I'm not sure about that...er, maybe I am.

Let's say it was a weird example and leave it at that. I mean, sure, the Saudis and North Koreans certainly get their way. Doesn't mean a single thing they do is exemplary. Since when did totalitarian thugs make good role models?

 

[chrysostom]

Simple...under law, execute those engaging in abortion the same way that other murderers are executed.

okay simple

how do you get this law?

 

[Samstarrett]

okay simple

how do you get this law?

Establish a Christian monarchy?

 

[chrysostom]

Establish a Christian monarchy?

more simple

 

[vegascowboy]

Well I suppose that's a step in the right direction.

Great! Come on over.

If all you want to do is coerce behavior, you can absolutely get results but no real change, not change in the heart. Trying to legislate abortion out of existence is one kind of goal, sure, but it certainly will never change the actual problem.

That is an intriguing answer. I'd love to hear (I'm not even typing in a sarcastic manner) what you propose to change a person's heart when they are inclined to abort a child.

Let's say it was a weird example and leave it at that.

Fair enough. I am not fan of the Saudis.

I mean, sure, the Saudis and North Koreans certainly get their way. Doesn't mean a single thing they do is exemplary. Since when did totalitarian thugs make good role models?

They are not, and I agree with you there.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Heart beat and or brain activity.

Seems arbitrary. What is your rationale?

 

[Granite]

That is an intriguing answer. I'd love to hear (I'm not even typing in a sarcastic manner) what you propose to change a person's heart when they are inclined to abort a child.

At that point, to be blunt, it may well be (and often is) too late. I'm talking a complete cultural change here. Not soundbites, not rallies, no even legislation--a complete paradigm shift away from the consumable disposal fast food style cultural we have where life is considered so cheap.

In other words, I may be a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Put another way: we need to work for a world where we don't force women to get to this point and box them into making this kind of choice. Where life is regarded with greater respect and dignity. Where women can and do control their bodies and don't allow themselves to think they have such an easy, quick, worst-case scenario out.

Fair enough. I am not fan of the Saudis.

Neither am I, but then again, they do keep my car running.