Where is Beatrice? I read some of it, seems creepy.
toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Where is Beatrice? I read some of it, seems creepy.
Krsto
Well-known member
It matters because this doctrine that the Reformed folks like so much is a major stumbling block to thinking people accepting the Christian faith, if they give the Reformed folks any creedence to begin with.
Actually, most non-believers think Christianity teaches eternal punishment for the unsaved and do give that idea creedence as being an accurate portrayal of what the bible teaches because the vast majority of churches teach that. So that doctrine is the bigger, more common stumbling block to not only thinking people but people who have an innate sense of biblical justice even though they are not saved.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, yes, and as much as what you forward is infinitely more palatable than folk being effectively roasted for eternity do you question yours also? Is it fair that people are just snuffed out because of difficulties with such heinous doctrines and thus remain 'unsaved'? Or those who don't even hear any message? Your own has problems to an inquiring mind as I see it as well...
Krsto
Well-known member
I've never had someone with an inquiring mind challenge me on it so far so I don't see your point :drum:
But seriously folks, being snuffed out isn't very unjust IMNSHO, and the gift of eternal life certainly isn't deserved by anyone either.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Then isn't it just as arbitrary as to who receives the gift and who doesn't though?
Bradley D
Well-known member
Predestination comes from the idea of Election/the Elect. In the OT the "elect" were the Hebrews who would become the Nation of Israel, later Judah and Israel.
In the NT there are those who believe the "elect" to be named persons whom God has selected over others to be the selected saved. Thus the idea of those predestined to be saved and those to predestined to hell/eternal damnation.
I see the "elect" as being those who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. God knows that "few" will accept Christ and His message of redemption (Matthew 22:14). Most people will chose a worldly life instead of the way to life eternal in heaven (Matthew 7:14).
The idea of Election is in the Bible. Therefore, is something that will continually be something to be addressed.
In the NT there are those who believe the "elect" to be named persons whom God has selected over others to be the selected saved. Thus the idea of those predestined to be saved and those to predestined to hell/eternal damnation.
I see the "elect" as being those who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. God knows that "few" will accept Christ and His message of redemption (Matthew 22:14). Most people will chose a worldly life instead of the way to life eternal in heaven (Matthew 7:14).
The idea of Election is in the Bible. Therefore, is something that will continually be something to be addressed.
Krsto
Well-known member
For God to "make an effort," so to speak, to get the Gospel preached in some areas so they at least have a chance of receiving a gift and not making sure everybody has that same chance is indeed arbitrary except that their are reasons and purposes behind what he does in that regard and we aren't privy to those purposes, in which case whether a person happens to be born in the right place or not to get that message is still the luck of the draw. But you seem to imply that if God gives the gift to anyone he is obligated to give it to everyone lest he be arbitrary? I don't see that as necessary. Preferable, but not necessary.
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Lon
Well-known member
Yes, all of us.
eameece
New member
The true church follows the teachings of Christ and those He has appointed to teach. There IS no other church, all who deliberately turn away from His teachings turn away from Him. They may call themselves any reasonable sounding name they wish but they are no longer followers of Christ.
I am speaking about those who deliberately reject His doctrines. If they twist and change the meaning of His words to make it say what THEY want it to say, this compounds their guilt. For now not only are they themselves liars but they actually put their lie into God's mouth. This cannot be done by innocent mistake, it is deliberate.
Universalism comes from the same stream of intellectualism that prevailed in Germany at the turn of the 19th century. I think it was a MAJOR contributary factor in the expansionism and empire building and so trade wars of that period and so was [along with evolution theory] a MAJOR contribution to the 1st world war....silencing the warnings of God in the consciences of society. From the 1st world war comes the 2nd world war. That I lay partly [but largely] at the door step of intellectualism and universalism in the church.
rainee
New member
Actually, beloved, and you know I do hold you as loved and be-loved even though we are on the internet and not in each others neighborhood or something -
but actually the whole thing is starting off with What IF. Never, never would I think he wanted us to be children in our thinking when he is writing us.
What IF. This calls for (I think) a very careful approach. imho.
I think he is requiring us to have an ability to look at something in a way we were not previously accustomed to looking - BUT - it really is a thinking exercise, isn't it?
ThePresbyteers
New member
We're surprised that science, recently, found something faster than the speed of light. I'm not surprised. I got ahead. Calvinism provided a jump start in the meaning of space and time. I found another layer of reality and discovered faith rather than create faith. Discover isn't accepting. I couldn't create faith since it was already there. If it's not there, you can't create faith. To some, it isn't there nor have the ability to save themselves by creating faith. Anyone can create the Lucifer vision of faith. Satan said, "If you can, you ought". The lie is you can't and you ought not try.
you can still create confusion
rainee
New member
Hi Kristo, you are really a good lesson to remind me I should be very careful what I ask for, yes?
So the numbers of Israel that did accept the Gospel means what?
Oops I forgot I should be careful in what I ask.
Let's be plain, a large number of people of Israel do not matter in the mind of someone when they are reading this section because they are being stubborn and thus blinded.
So nowhere in Romans chapter 9:1-24(a) can I find anyone talking about Israel. I can only find one talking about individuals.
Sometimes talking about Pharaoh, not Egypt, sometimes talking about Esau and Jacob.
And the section ends on Romans 9:24 a:
"that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only...
And from that point on the talking is leading to some kind of prophecy maybe, so we don't need to worry that - it will take care of itself, yes?
Hmmm,Paul works with this "vessels" theme again here:
2 Timothy 2:21
Why He does not hold to the concept of chosen there?
You know that is sacrilege what you just wrote up there, don't you?
In the old days you know what would be happening to you for what you have written?
You are a heretic, I fear.
So the numbers of Israel that did accept the Gospel means what?
Oops I forgot I should be careful in what I ask.
Let's be plain, a large number of people of Israel do not matter in the mind of someone when they are reading this section because they are being stubborn and thus blinded.
So nowhere in Romans chapter 9:1-24(a) can I find anyone talking about Israel. I can only find one talking about individuals.
Sometimes talking about Pharaoh, not Egypt, sometimes talking about Esau and Jacob.
And the section ends on Romans 9:24 a:
"that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only...
And from that point on the talking is leading to some kind of prophecy maybe, so we don't need to worry that - it will take care of itself, yes?
Hmmm,Paul works with this "vessels" theme again here:
2 Timothy 2:21
Why He does not hold to the concept of chosen there?
You know that is sacrilege what you just wrote up there, don't you?
In the old days you know what would be happening to you for what you have written?
You are a heretic, I fear.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What's the 'true church' exactly?
Deliberately rejecting man made doctrines is not exactly the same thing. If you believe eternal torment is taught as biblical it's your call, but it doesn't mean you're correct on the matter.
I think you'll find it stems back considerably further than that, if the founding church fathers and original translators count at any rate....heard of Origen?
lain: Your diatribe regarding the world wars is just downright bizarre frankly. :AMR:
Krsto
Well-known member
What's the 'true church' exactly?
Deliberately rejecting man made doctrines is not exactly the same thing. If you believe eternal torment is taught as biblical it's your call, but it doesn't mean you're correct on the matter.
I think you'll find it stems back considerably further than that, if the founding church fathers and original translators count at any rate....heard of Origen?
Yeah, I'm really straining here to see a connection :chuckle:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Yup, I mean call me whacko an all but I was under the impression that the second world war was fought in large part to prevent a despot and followers from imposing a tyrannical regime upon the free world....somehow I don't think Hitler and 'gang' were universalists....
lain: