• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Time doesn't exist.

I think you've read too much Deepak Chopra
Don't even know what that is but you do.

Just like energy which cannot be created nor can it be destroyed God who is Spirit which cannot be seen But A force that moves he cannot be destroyed nor was he created. Hebrews 11:3 Bible tells us that what is seen is it made out of the things that appear. What science think they know they don't but it is impossible in the minds of far too many to see God as spirit.
 
Nonsense from the beginning to end. Science isn't beginning to say that time doesn't exist! The whole of modern cosmology is predicated on the idea that time does exist and that space and time are the same thing.


Yeah, the first half of my life was spent thinking about Einstein's theories. He DID NOT say that everything is energy. You sound like you've watched one too many episodes of Ancient Aliens.


Believe what you want, I suppose. Got anything to back up this belief of yours?


Which has nothing to do with the physical universe's CREATOR!


Time exists as an idea. It does not exist in the way that a rock exists or that you and I exist or that God exists. It's a concept, an abstraction. It exists in a thinking mind and nowhere else.

Ancient aliens isn't that about aliens? And not about the laws of conservation or Einstein or even Hawkins. I read Mr.
 

JudgeRightly

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Thank you for your response I disagree with you on most of the things you said.
And I am good at telling another they can believe what they choose as can I, so even if it wasn't said by you under consideration I still thank you for saying it. Goodbye !

What a waste of bandwidth...
 

Clete

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Thank you for your response I disagree with you on most of the things you said.
And I am good at telling another they can believe what they choose as can I, so even if it wasn't said by you under consideration I still thank you for saying it. Goodbye !


judgerightly -- duh
So what are you even doing here if you aren't going to discuss things with people?
 

Clete

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I saw it. It's a catchy headline but there isn't anyway that mainstream science is coming within a million light years of accepting the idea that space/time isn't a real thing that expands and contracts depending on which way something moves and that somehow "curves" to create gravity (curves in what direction no one wants to answer, by the way). The entire worldwide scientific establishment would have to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. No way that's happening anytime soon. It'll take something colossal, like a societal collapse where most of what passes for science these days is forgotten about for a generation, to make such a thing happen.
 

Avajs

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I saw it. It's a catchy headline but there isn't anyway that mainstream science is coming within a million light years of accepting the idea that space/time isn't a real thing that expands and contracts depending on which way something moves and that somehow "curves" to create gravity (curves in what direction no one wants to answer, by the way). The entire worldwide scientific establishment would have to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. No way that's happening anytime soon. It'll take something colossal, like a societal collapse where most of what passes for science these days is forgotten about for a generation, to make such a thing happen.
Do you have evidence that "mainstream science" is wrong about space/time?

As an aside, I heard someone the other day (podcast/ lecture?)suggest that should society collapse and "most of what passes for science these days" is forgotten about for an extended period of time, at some point it would all be rediscovered because, well, facts are facts.
Do you have some particular issue with "mainstream" science? Is there a non-mainstream science you consider more accurate in understanding the world?
 

Derf

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Do you have evidence that "mainstream science" is wrong about space/time?

As an aside, I heard someone the other day (podcast/ lecture?)suggest that should society collapse and "most of what passes for science these days" is forgotten about for an extended period of time, at some point it would all be rediscovered because, well, facts are facts.
You should be able to say the same thing about any point in history...that all will be rediscovered. But that suggests either that we've already explained everything correctly...and so had the people at any point in history..., or that we're wrong about some stuff, in which case we wouldn't necessarily want to rediscover the wrong stuff.
Do you have some particular issue with "mainstream" science? Is there a non-mainstream science you consider more accurate in understanding the world?
"Mainstream" science is very ambiguous, but the most noticeable characteristic is that it is decided by consensus, rather than by facts, in which case, you should review my first point.
 

Avajs

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You should be able to say the same thing about any point in history...that all will be rediscovered. But that suggests either that we've already explained everything correctly...and so had the people at any point in history..., or that we're wrong about some stuff, in which case we wouldn't necessarily want to rediscover the wrong stuff.

"Mainstream" science is very ambiguous, but the most noticeable characteristic is that it is decided by consensus, rather than by facts, in which case, you should review my first point.
My comment about science and history was a thought about what happens in the future should there be a world wide catastrophe and civilization goes backwards, lets say to the bronze age. Going forward there is no reason to believe the future civilizations will look like ours today, but the science will since physics and chemistry will remain the same and eventually those who survive the catastrophe will discover that.

the term "mainstream science" came for Clete's post, he used it.
Yes there is consensus in science, when it is based on facts. There is consensus about the germ theory of disease, consensus about the theory of gravity and consensus about the theory of evolution because they are all supported by facts and evidence.
But science is willing to change should new facts and evidence appear. Alfred Wegener posited the theory of continental drift in the 1910's. He based that on the fit of the continents and biogeography of plants and animals, extinct and extant. That theory was not well thought of until the mid 20th century when studies of the ocean bottom showed the spreading at the mid ocean ridges---viola the theory of plate tectonics built on Wegener's hypothesis and now there is pretty much another consensus.

If you have any particular issue with consensus in current scientific thinking on a particular topic feel free to discuss.
 

Clete

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Do you have evidence that "mainstream science" is wrong about space/time?
There's lots of evidence!

First of all, just to give one piece of evidence myself and in my own words, the concept of spacetime is tied directly to what is called the isotropic constancy of the speed of light. This property of light is very weird. Most people do not understand it so let me briefly explain.

Let's say you were traveling at the speed of a bullet and as you past by a stationary experiment partner, you both fire a gun. Your bullet would proceed away from you at the normal speed of the bullet while your bullet would proceed away from your stationary partner at twice that speed. Your partner's bullet on the other hand, would proceed away from him at the normal speed of a bullet but that bullet would appear to you to be stationary and would simply fall to the ground. Pretty straight forward stuff, right?

Now, let's say that you're traveling at almost the speed of light and just as pass your stationary partner, you both fire a laser beam in the direction that you are traveling. Relativity says that both your laser beam and the one fired by your stationary partner will both proceed away from you at the speed of light AND that both your laser beam and the one fired from your stationary partner will ALSO both proceed away from your partner at the speed of light. In effect, it would look to you like light from your partner's laser decided to double in speed and it would seem to your partner that your beam just sort of oozed slowly out of your laser.

Now, there are two things wrong with that. First of all, and most importantly, it is irrational. It is quite literally a self-contradictory proposition. Secondly, it is the ONLY THING in all of existence that supposedly displays this property. Nothing else in all of physics seems to double its speed based solely on the fact that you, the observer, happen to be moving.

Now, Einstein's theories get around this physical contradiction by adding a 4th mathematical dimension and that's how "spacetime" was born. And the math works! Make no mistake, I am not saying that the math doesn't work or that Einstein's equations aren't useful. They do work and they are very useful. It isn't the math that's wrong, its the interpretation that is false. You cannot use one form of logic to declare a contradiction to be the truth. That doesn't work because you'd be using logic to undermine the veracity of logic. No! Contradictions DO NOT exist in reality. If you think you've found one, check your premises. You'll find that one of them is false.

As for alternate cosmological theories, I have become convinced that the Electric Universe Theory is on the right track. Even mainstream science is slowly starting to come around on accepting the idea that both electrical charge differentials and magnetic fields (both of which make up the electromagnetic force, which is literally millions of times stronger than the force of gravity) exist on astronomical scales and may play a part in various aspects of the phenomena that we observe with our telescopes.



Now, that is by no means all of the evidence against the concept of spacetime. There are several good sources around. Here's a few of the better one's that I've found....

Importantly, I just want to say that I do not endorse these website per se. I haven't read everything they say and some of what I have read I don't understand and some of it I outright disagree with. However, on particular topics, they are excellent sources of information that you won't find on the Discovery channel or read in your high school text books....

The following site gives good information about the isotropic constancy of the speed of light and other aspects of mathematics based physics...

Physic's New Suit


This next site has a lot of very well done YouTube videos on a wide variety of subjects related to the Electric Universe Theory which simply puts forward the idea the the electromagnetic force, which is literally millions of times more powerful than gravity, has a large roll to play in the cosmos, as apposed to modern mainstream cosmology which insists that gravity is the ONLY force of any consequence on astronomical scales.

Avoid anything and everything on the following website that uses the phrase "alien sky". Unfortunately there seems to always be some portion of alternative theories that has to include something that is legitimate nonsense and which makes it easy for people to discount the entire thing as crackpot silliness. Just focus on the "Space News" YouTube videos and look for any of them that talk about Einstein or Relativity or the speed of light, etc. Their series on 10 reasons why the universe is electric is also worth your time as is their full length documentary called "Thunderbolts - The Tutorial", all of which are free on YouTube....

The Thunderbolts Project


This next one isn't about Einstein's "Space-Time" per se but about debunking the Big Bang Theory which supposedly created spacetime. This site, I fully endorse every syllable of, by the way....

Evidence Against the Big Bang Theory



As an aside, I heard someone the other day (podcast/ lecture?)suggest that should society collapse and "most of what passes for science these days" is forgotten about for an extended period of time, at some point it would all be rediscovered because, well, facts are facts.
Well, that is as textbook an example of question begging as has been posted on this website in years!

The comment is only true in so far as what is being put forward as science these days is actually fact, right?

So, putting that forward as an argument that modern science is factual would be to assume the answer to the question being debated. As I said, textbook question begging.

Do you have some particular issue with "mainstream" science? Is there a non-mainstream science you consider more accurate in understanding the world?
Mainstream science is atheistic in its worldview which means that it cannot help but lead to error because, as we are told in God's word...

Proverbs 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.​

Modern physics and cosmology, in particular, are aggressively anti-theistic. ANY explanation, no matter how feeble or irrational is superior, in their minds, to any explanation that even leaves open for discussion the existence of God.

This worldview is the root and the cause of whatever issues I might have with modern science, but I do not have any issue with science, per se. In fact, I love science! Science, when done properly, is nothing more than the systematic application of sound reason in an effort to understand the universe in which we live. I believe in a God who is not merely rational but who is Reason itself and that He created the universe through Reason and that nothing that was made was made without Reason (See John 1:1-5). And so, it is completely expected that natural processes are discoverable and understandable. Indeed, if it were not so, it would falsify my religion!
 
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Yes there is consensus in science, when it is based on facts. There is consensus about the germ theory of disease, consensus about the theory of gravity and consensus about the theory of evolution because they are all supported by facts and evidence.
Nope... dream on...

There may be "consensus about the theory of evolution", but consensus is not science and the idea that all life shares a single common ancestor is a fairy tale (and quite absurd).
 

Avajs

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Nope... dream on...

There may be "consensus about the theory of evolution", but consensus is not science and the idea that all life shares a single common ancestor is a fairy tale (and quite absurd).
As the coffee mug my wife gave me states "I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong."
 

Clete

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Yes there is consensus in science, when it is based on facts. There is consensus about the germ theory of disease, consensus about the theory of gravity and consensus about the theory of evolution because they are all supported by facts and evidence.
This is, frankly, naive. If only scientists were so honest! Consensus based on facts is the way it is supposed to work, but if you think that modern science isn't up to its neck in politics, you need to wake up.

There are at least three major aspects of modern science that are severely detrimental to the ideal that you've expressed and that guarantee the erosion, and eventual non-existence, of that ideal.

1. The tenure system within universities, which leads to group think and the censure of dissenting voices.
2. Government funding of universities in general. He who pays the fiddler, calls the tune.
3. Government funding of scientific research that has nothing to do with the proper roles of government.
 

Avajs

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This is, frankly, naive. If only scientists were so honest! Consensus based on facts is the way it is supposed to work, but if you think that modern science isn't up to its neck in politics, you need to wake up.

There are at least three major aspects of modern science that are severely detrimental to the ideal that you've expressed and that guarantee the erosion, and eventual non-existence, of that ideal.

1. The tenure system within universities, which leads to group think and the censure of dissenting voices.
2. Government funding of universities in general. He who pays the fiddler, calls the tune.
3. Government funding of scientific research that has nothing to do with the proper roles of government.
How would you suggest funding of scientific research?
 

Clete

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How would you suggest funding of scientific research?
By those who stand to benefit from it and who have a personal interest in how the money is spent.

"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." - Thomas Sowell

Incidentally, I am not apposed to all government funded research but it should be limited to those areas that pertain directly to proper governmental roles such as the military, crime investigation and prevention, and infrastructure.
 

JudgeRightly

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Incidentally, I am not apposed to all government funded research but it should be limited to those areas that pertain directly to proper governmental roles such as the military, crime investigation and prevention, and infrastructure.

A really good example of this is up in Minnesota, on I-94 in Monticello, where there's a highway materials testing that they divert live traffic from the westbound side onto in order to test different materials and compositions of concrete and asphalt.

Google Maps location:
 
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