ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

JudgeRightly

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Hi and in 2 Peter 3:8 say that a thousand years is like one day , so it seems that recognizes DAYS , YEARS and TIME !!

See my above response on this to PJ.

In Eph 2:7 , in the AGES / AION means time ?

dan p

As for this...

that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 2:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:7&version=NKJV

Everything about that verse shows sequence.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

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TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?


Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?






*** I have included both these subjects in the same thread because in some theology groups these are used often and have some overlap to express what GOD is and how He operates, although they can also be talked about in this thread separately.
It is to keep another thread from going down an off-topic rabbit hole. ***


Chose your poison and go with it!

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created

beginning
noun
the point in time or space at which something begins

This was the mother of all beginnings, because time begins at this point.

Time is a physical property of the universe and science has proven this in many repeatable experiments.

God created time.

People who don't know this and say otherwise need to do some research on the subject.

Time is not just an ethereal concept.
 

JudgeRightly

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This is how I vision it.

It is linear in that it only goes two ways - past and future.
The line is infinite both ways (doesn't have an end either way).


:Clete:
_____________________________________________________________


The line is time and that is you going through life and your moments/segments of time.
The line (time) is infinite, and doesn't 'move' with you.
So while your moments in that line (time) have a beginning and end, because you were born and died, the line remains infinite and has several other lives on it both before (the past) and after (the future) of your segment of the infinite line.
I think a better analogy is a modification of the "time is a river" analogy.

From kgov.com/time:


Misconception 3: Time flows toward the future. Time's arrow is almost universally described as pointing from the past to the future such that the current of time flows forward. Of course this is a metaphor, yet this widespread impression is unintentionally exactly wrong. The truth is the reverse. For to whatever extent way we may speak of time flowing, then to that extent time flows from the future into the past. The current of time brings the future into the present and the present into the past. Using the metaphor of a river, while docks and anchors resist the flow, other things readily float along with the current. Regarding time, what is it that resists its flow, and what rides in its current? Dates, for example, ride the current of time keeping pace perfectly with its flow. Tomorrow's date, yielding no resistance, suspended perfectly in time, readily moves with the current and will eventually arrive, not at a point further into the future, but, being carried by time, will eventually arrive at the present, and then recede into the past. Even entire books written on the topic, like Coveney and Highfield's atheistic Arrow of Time inaccurately speak of "time's forward movement." Incorrectly men assume that the current of time sweeps us from birth to death (which would be moving us toward the future). But more accurately, the current of time eventually sweeps our entire earthly lives into the past. Time does not carry our birth forward into the future, nor (as it might if time flowed forward) does it forever postpone our physical death nudging it later and later. Rather, "I" am like a floating buoy anchored to the river bed bobbing and resisting the flow of time. Contrariwise, the "events" that I experience are not similarly anchored and so being vulnerable to the flow of time, as sediment suspended in a river current, they are whisked into the past. So things can resist the flow fo time, so to speak, but events cannot. And like events, pointers, or markers, to moments in time flow perfectly with the current of time. Thus at the time of this writing, the "date" of January 1, 2020 is floating toward the present, caught up, as it is, perfectly in the current of time, and will eventually reach the present, and then, as age piles on top of age, greatly recede, with the flow of time carrying it forever further and further into the distant past. Though nearly ubiquitous, this misperception may not be harmless. The false idea that time flows forward into the future, bringing us along, may incline people toward false notions about the possibility of time travel and about the nature of time itself. In reality, being made in God's image, we too are stationary, ever living in the present.

 

JudgeRightly

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Doesn't that make God bound by time in some way? If time is infinite in the past and future, that makes God AND time both infinite.
More like "time" is part of His nature.

After all, history is really "His story," is it not? :think:
 

JudgeRightly

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2 Timothy 1:9 NIV - [FONT=&quot]He has saved[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] us and called[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,[/FONT]
See my above response to Dan P.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?


Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?






*** I have included both these subjects in the same thread because in some theology groups these are used often and have some overlap to express what GOD is and how He operates, although they can also be talked about in this thread separately.
It is to keep another thread from going down an off-topic rabbit hole. ***


Chose your poison and go with it!

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

We look like God.

Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

And we are like God.

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Well ......

Why is my statement a loaded assumption, but your above statement is not?
You start with the assumption that time did not exist with GOD before creation and continue that assumption to your conclusion.
I did not start with the assumption that time did not exist with God before creation.

That's what we are trying to determine by asking questions about it from both perspectives.
So I don't consider either of our statements as "loaded".
I think they help us explore thoughts on the matter.

If it was not necessary, then it was purposeless, aimless, meaningless, of no value.
You're really confusing the issue here. You said "Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?" That is not a valid question. It serves no purpose. It either IS or ISN'T true..... There is no necessity, it just either IS or ISN'T true.

Whether God exists in or out of time before the creation is not based on purpose or necessity..... it's just what it is one way or the other.

Plus the fact that we have no indication in scripture that GOD ever did anything that was not in sequence.
So why would any theology student want to insist on adding it to a study of the GOD of scripture?
I mean, some (not saying you) are so adamant about it that they will call anyone a heretic for not believing it.
I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other, but I'm convinced that God is complete without His creation and does not exist according to time.

Every case where I see the use of "sequence" as being the great determining factor in God in time.... it's always with respect to His creation.

The theory of timelessness in theology started around the time of Ambrose and Augustine.
Augustine was a Platonist.
Augustine was so enthralled with Platonism that he once suggested that one could not sufficiently understand scripture but through the lens of Platonism, and did all he could to merge them.
He also commented that he did not believe hardly any of scripture until after he studied Platonism.
This is not news, it has been known of Augustine that he relied heavily on Platonism and incorporated it into his theology.
So some say.

I like the topic.
I think it's interesting to talk about.
But if it cannot be verified with scripture, then it is little more than speculative philosophy talk.
I believe that God simply being called the ETERNAL God is enough proof for me that He is outside of time in His nature and apart from His creation.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Actually, the phrase used in 2 Timothy 1:9 does not say "time began."

Spoiler
881e47033971ee4d60af16fc19105356.jpg


πρὸ χρόνων ἀιωνίων
pro chronon aionion
before time eternal

"Before time eternal" certainly does not sound like "before time began."

0d88c932f8528dbaf3b0e90236c07421.jpg

I did a quick study on this some months ago and found that only the newer versions used "before time began". It was as if the concept of a beginning of time did not exist until Einstein.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
I did not start with the assumption that time did not exist with God before creation.


You're really confusing the issue here. You said "Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?" That is not a valid question. It serves no purpose. It either IS or ISN'T true..... There is no necessity, it just either IS or ISN'T true.

Whether God exists in or out of time before the creation is not based on purpose or necessity..... it's just what it is one way or the other.


I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other, but I'm convinced that God is complete without His creation and does not exist according to time.

Every case where I see the use of "sequence" as being the great determining factor in God in time.... it's always with respect to His creation.


So some say.


I believe that God simply being called the ETERNAL God is enough proof for me that He is outside of time in His nature and apart from His creation.
I agree. Before I started reading the Bible seriously I thought a lot about time in general. It occurred to me that we measure time and we need to. I thought, maybe God doesn't need "time" as we define it. Why would He? Simply because His creation experiences and measures time, doesn't mean God does. It seems to me that if time goes infinitely backwards and forwards then for all intents and purposes, time does not exist.

It also seems that if God knows any part of the future it is technically outside of time.
 

Tambora

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TIME

Time is duration.
If there was no time, then there was no past or future.
If there is no past and there is not future, then one cannot deliberate, anticipate, remember, or plan ahead.
(Can't remember if there is no past to remember, and cannot anticipate if there is no future to anticipate or plan.)

Rather than create some mystical 'timelessness', why not just admit that GOD does not experience each moment instantaneously, but experiences each moment as endless 'nows' in succession which makes it possible to remember the past and anticipate and plan for the future.
Making 'time' the same with GOD as it is with mankind, with the only difference being that our 'nows' had a beginning but do not end, and GOD's 'nows' had neither beginning or end. (Our future is eternal, but not our past; while GOD's past and future are eternal.)
 

Derf

Well-known member
TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?


Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?






*** I have included both these subjects in the same thread because in some theology groups these are used often and have some overlap to express what GOD is and how He operates, although they can also be talked about in this thread separately.
It is to keep another thread from going down an off-topic rabbit hole. ***


Chose your poison and go with it!

I appreciate your topic choice! And joining the two together is not a bad idea, as the references to God acting in time would have to be anthropomorphic if God is wholly outside of time.

The definition of "time" seems so necessary here, yet it eludes our grasp.

"Sequence" makes sense to our minds--if one thing is done "before" another, then time is assumed, as "before" is a time word. But, is the "before" anthropormorphic. Does God have the ability to do things that seem sequential without having to do them in sequence.

For instance, if the Father and the Son have an eternal relationship in the Godhead, but they made a covenant regarding the Son's sacrifice for humankind, it is outside our ability to comprehend that mankind was really created at the same "time" as the covenant, especially when we read: "in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began," [Tit 1:2 NKJV]

Or in the KJV: "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" [Tit 1:2 KJV]

The promise could not have been to any human, but only to each other. The phrase "before the world began" and "before time began" are not too far off from each other, but the second is counterintuitive, as it references a time (sequence) outside of ("before") time.

Another possible interpretation of "time" is according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which essentially says that disorder ("entropy") is increasing. God is not a God of disorder, and an eternal God could not increase forever in disorder. Thus, God is not affected by time in the same way that we are. This leads me to think that God is "inside of" or interacting with time, but is not affected by time--He doesn't get old, for instance.

I've heard the suggestion before that at the fall, the universe experienced a shift in the laws of thermodynamics, where the 2nd law was introduced for the first time. I don't know that such makes sense, but it is an interesting perspective. Thus, before the fall, there was "evening and morning" signifying a passage of time, but not entropy, allowing for an eternal creation, and humans could still live forever.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I think a better analogy is a modification of the "time is a river" analogy.

From kgov.com/time:


Misconception 3: Time flows toward the future. Time's arrow is almost universally described as pointing from the past to the future such that the current of time flows forward. Of course this is a metaphor, yet this widespread impression is unintentionally exactly wrong. The truth is the reverse. For to whatever extent way we may speak of time flowing, then to that extent time flows from the future into the past. The current of time brings the future into the present and the present into the past. Using the metaphor of a river, while docks and anchors resist the flow, other things readily float along with the current. Regarding time, what is it that resists its flow, and what rides in its current? Dates, for example, ride the current of time keeping pace perfectly with its flow. Tomorrow's date, yielding no resistance, suspended perfectly in time, readily moves with the current and will eventually arrive, not at a point further into the future, but, being carried by time, will eventually arrive at the present, and then recede into the past. Even entire books written on the topic, like Coveney and Highfield's atheistic Arrow of Time inaccurately speak of "time's forward movement." Incorrectly men assume that the current of time sweeps us from birth to death (which would be moving us toward the future). But more accurately, the current of time eventually sweeps our entire earthly lives into the past. Time does not carry our birth forward into the future, nor (as it might if time flowed forward) does it forever postpone our physical death nudging it later and later. Rather, "I" am like a floating buoy anchored to the river bed bobbing and resisting the flow of time. Contrariwise, the "events" that I experience are not similarly anchored and so being vulnerable to the flow of time, as sediment suspended in a river current, they are whisked into the past. So things can resist the flow fo time, so to speak, but events cannot. And like events, pointers, or markers, to moments in time flow perfectly with the current of time. Thus at the time of this writing, the "date" of January 1, 2020 is floating toward the present, caught up, as it is, perfectly in the current of time, and will eventually reach the present, and then, as age piles on top of age, greatly recede, with the flow of time carrying it forever further and further into the distant past. Though nearly ubiquitous, this misperception may not be harmless. The false idea that time flows forward into the future, bringing us along, may incline people toward false notions about the possibility of time travel and about the nature of time itself. In reality, being made in God's image, we too are stationary, ever living in the present.


Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.:banana:
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Well I don't think timelessness is possible, so there is no inside and outside of time. Whether past, present, or future, time always is.


Hi and how Rev 20:10 be explained FOR EVER and EVER / AION ??


When all are thrown into the Lake of Fire , does time STOP ??

I say NO !!

If you say YES , THEN FOR EVER and EVER does not mean any thing !!

dan p
 

Derf

Well-known member
Yep, and the past would be outside of time also.

I think we have much less conception of what it means to be "outside of time" than we do to be "inside time". To use the phrase "outside of time" might be nonsense, not only in fact, but also in conception. When we say "all things are simultaneous" it presupposes the definition of time as "sequence", and "outside of time" as "no sequence". Are these definitions correct?

My preference on the issue of past and future is to see whether anything can be changed. If nothing can be changed in the past, that makes sense, and God can actually tell us what happened in the past (including before our time)--there's no fear that God will go change the past to make the bible's historical passages inaccurate. Plus, it suggests that God has to fix His mistakes in the past, based on what He learns in the future.

If the future cannot be changed, then it (and the present and the past) are merely a movie, previously recorded and just being viewed. This includes all actions, words and deeds of everybody--including God. Since God Has been involved from before the movie was made, it doesn't restrict His free will, but it removes ours, since the movie was recorded before we existed. And if He is the only entity that was around when the movie was recorded, He is the author of all that is in it, and the only audience.

If the future can be changed, then there isn't something that already exists called "the future", because if it is ever "changed", then it must not have been the true future, but a false one. If God somehow uses this "false future" to decide what the "real future" will be, then God's knowledge is faulty--what He believes to be the future is a false future. (This is the counterfactual argument--God can't "know" something that isn't really true. If He knew you were going to get hit by a car tomorrow, and prevented it, then He didn't really know you were going to get hit by the car.)
 
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