ECT This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

nikolai_42

Well-known member
These verses must have been penned for the benefit of someone at least.

Most just say they can never apply to them because they were born again some time ago.

We will see what happens when they go through the heavy temptations yet to come--

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.


It takes much more than a past salvation experience.

LA

Note the wording of the Matthew 24 passage you quoted. The terminologyt ("...evil servant...", "...his portion...", "...eat and drink with the drunken...") is right in line with the wording of the chapters quoted from in the OP. These men not only cannot stand, but they turn and cavort with those who are not Christ's. They throw self-restraint to the wind and stop trying to resist in their own strength - because they ultimately can't hold out. The only ones that could withstand that are those that are truly born again - truly know the Savior. The idea that a "salvation experience" can do this for them is right out of that same cheap grace mode of thinking. Being born again is more than just an experience - it is an entirely new life,.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation,
I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for
the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for
this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness
and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.


The NKJV calls these people “apostates” (3 times in section headings).

“This verse (4) is very similar to a passage written by Peter in his second letter (2 Peter 2:1-3).
These false teachers were teaching that it didn’t matter whether a person sinned or not,
because no matter how much one sinned, God’s grace was sufficient to cleanse him;
therefore, they said, a Christian could do whatever he pleased (see Rom 6:1-2, 2 Peter 3:16).
By their own evil behavior, these false teachers were denying Christ. Men deny Christ
not only by what they say, but also by what they do (Titus 1:16).”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary -- Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing)

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will
be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom
the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time
their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


Yes, I agree, "easy grace", "greasy grace", etc. and OSAS certainly are destructive heresies!
And they must be incredibly destructive indeed (worse than sins) ...
… because I don’t see above where any repentance is even possible.

Posted on Nov.10 @ 6:27am PST

So, you are saying those passages prove what?

Who are those passages referring to?

a. people who are born again, having the gift of eternal life/salvation by grace

b. certain men who God knows are not believers, false teachers who deny the truth
 
Most conditionalism - even if it does seem to support the idea that the bible must be consistent - doesn't do exegesis as much as kneejerk theology - and then claim that it's just taking God at His word (and I think most of them really believe they are). But too often it's filtered through that natural understanding Peter and Jude talked about, and grounded in the wickedness they see in themselves. I try to tread lightly here because we all have these tendencies in us by virtue of being in Adam. We all (naturally) want to justify ourselves and when we accept that we are sinners, we want to correct the situation on our own. But the one who knows the Lord and has been changed deeply and radically can't go back to that.

Wanted to comment on this, but didn't have time earlier. Something important you bring up here is how we must never filter the word of God through our limited understandings and prejudices. I was taught very early on and have always sought to do this, to only seek exactly what the Lord is saying in scripture, regardless where this leads, to avoid like the plague any notion scripture reads in a way that is philosophically agreeable, to flee subjectivity, and to flee writings of cults and cultish figures with private interpretations, differing from generations of fundamental understandings in the Reformed Christian community.

On difficult issues, seek further clarification from the whole Bible, look for first mention, etc. Though I do hope to bring common sense to scripture understanding, for instance, if the Lord says we have eternal life, present tense, this means we have eternal life, and eternal life cannot be temporary life. God is a God of reason, and, of absolute truth, means what He says, as well as God is not the author of confusion. It is people who are confused, having the endless grand debates. Ironically, precept upon precept, a simpler, crystal clarity begins to emerge, pure reason and consistency throughout scripture. But you must approach scripture with a completely open mind, seeking the mind of God, and only His mind, His mind higher than ours, His thinking often not ours.

There have been a few things in scripture I have a hard time with, and this is where I believe faith means you trust the Lord knows best. Thus saith the Lord, and that settles it. Also, if one is having a problem, read what great men of God, of sterling reputations, had to say down the generations in honored commentaries: you'd be very surprised how great fundamentalist scholars agree on much, great seminarians who can help clear the air. And this, as opposed to expecting to find truth in web forums, which are rife with cults, trolls and tares. Using this approach, you begin to see the harmony and consistency in the entire body of the word of God, see the immutable and holy God of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. It's clear that simply God's holiness is not really grasped by many, from narcissistic comments one sees, where man's control freak role is elevated and injected into God's work. Anyway, subjectivity leads to false exegesis, which leads to contradictions and disharmony, the confusion symptomatic of a lack of understanding. The net results are the convoluted discourses you see in forums and the like. So, much agree with your thoughts on this.

The Bible even warns of the folly of subjectivity, the filters you refer to, in no uncertain terms:

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
It takes much more than a past salvation experience.
Yes, mucho. But, Satan and his hirelings in the puplits don't agree with you!
I still need to dig up those 10 verses that are supposed to teach us:
Our belief-faith-trust-obedience MUST endure until the end of our lives,
whilst we are being sanctified unto holiness ...
to finally receive salvation and be ready to enter Heaven.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
The idea that a "salvation experience" can do this for them
is right out of that same cheap grace mode of thinking.
Being born again is more than just an experience - it is an entirely new life.
Thought it might be a grand idea to bold this statement of Truth.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
Who are those passages referring to?
They refer to apostates ...
Christians who chose to fall away into sin, rebellion, etc.
They chose to teach against God's truth,
perhaps as a means to justify their new lifestyle
(going back to their old man sinning lifestyle).

Stay tuned for more explanations from Thomas Holt,
who was (still is?) a Spirit-filled missionary in Nepal,
re: these types of verses.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
My favorite anti-OSAS verse is Matthew 1:19)

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. (Matthew 1:19 NKJV)​
 

musterion

Well-known member
to finally receive salvation and be ready to enter Heaven.

The one who has believed the saving Gospel has already been made ready in Christ, so much so that he is already counted as transferred into His Kingdom (Col 1:13). Why do you hate even the suggestion that this is the Truth?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The one who has believed the saving Gospel has already been made ready in Christ, so much so that he is already counted as transferred into His Kingdom (Col 1:13).

Being transferred into God's kingdom does not imply spiritual maturity. Jesus preached the kingdom of God and said, "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding, and the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10 NKJV)

Not everyone is ready.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Fellow-heirs (Eph. 3:6)—of One Inheritance
Fellow-members (Eph. 3:6)—of One Body
Fellow-partakers (Eph. 3:6)—of One Calling
Fellow-citizens (Eph. 2:19)—of One Home
Fellow-laborers (Eph. 4:3)—of One Master
Fellow-soldiers (Phil. 2:25)—in One Warfare
Fellow-prisoners (Rom. 16:7)—in One Hope.
Paul refers to each of the above as an accomplished fact for each and every person who has believed the saving Gospel. Anyone believing any other good news (which is no good news at all) can claim none of those things but is still under the pending wrath of God.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
Not everyone is ready.
Very few are ready who are in today's despicable Laodicean churches,
which are preaching "the cheap grace with no accountability gospel".

Have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous than:
-- Jesus sending to hell unbelievers who sin habitually
-- Jesus sending to heaven believers who sin habitually
 

musterion

Well-known member
Very few are ready who are in today's despicable Laodicean churches,
which are preaching "the cheap grace with no accountability gospel".

Have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous than:
-- Jesus sending to hell unbelievers who sin habitually
-- Jesus sending to heaven believers who sin habitually

The dead don't sin.
 

andyc

New member

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation,
I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for
the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for
this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness
and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.


The NKJV calls these people “apostates” (3 times in section headings).

“This verse (4) is very similar to a passage written by Peter in his second letter (2 Peter 2:1-3).
These false teachers were teaching that it didn’t matter whether a person sinned or not,
because no matter how much one sinned, God’s grace was sufficient to cleanse him;
therefore, they said, a Christian could do whatever he pleased (see Rom 6:1-2, 2 Peter 3:16).
By their own evil behavior, these false teachers were denying Christ. Men deny Christ
not only by what they say, but also by what they do (Titus 1:16).”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary -- Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing)

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will
be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom
the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time
their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


Yes, I agree, "easy grace", "greasy grace", etc. and OSAS certainly are destructive heresies!
And they must be incredibly destructive indeed (worse than sins) ...
… because I don’t see above where any repentance is even possible.

Posted on Nov.10 @ 6:27am PST

A couple of things here.
I think your use of the term "losing salvation" is incorrect. Believers do not lose their salvation, they can trash it by no longer believing.
But that is different to having it forfeited. For example, if you untie a boat and let it drift away, you didn't lose it, you no longer wanted it.

The gnostic hyperdispensationalists here who go berserk when they see threads like this, also don't believe in OSAS. If any of them turned against MAD, the others would deny that they were saved in the first place, thus negating whatever salvation they think they might have now. And so the romantic OSAS idea is nonsense, and they know it really.

The condition of salvation is always faith, and there are numerous verses explaining this.
 

musterion

Well-known member
The gnostic hyperdispensationalists here who go berserk when they see threads like this, also don't believe in OSAS. If any of them turned against MAD, the others would deny that they were saved in the first place, thus negating whatever salvation they think they might have now. And so the romantic OSAS idea is nonsense, and they know it really.

No, that just shows how little you actually understand about what we believe.We've tried explaining it to you before, at length, but you've been blinded to it.

Someone can turn against MAD -- I know a MAD pastor of many decades who did exactly that -- yet he believes the Gospel of grace. So he's still just as saved, even though he opposes what he once taught. So you can stop shooting your mouth off now.
 
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