The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace
- Thread starter Bob Hill
- Start date
Mr Hill,Bob Hill said:
There is no 'older' dispensation as to salvation which was promised and is now come, for there was never an "Acceptable Year of the LORD which ended sins's remembrance and allowed the vale to the Holy of Holies to be split and "a Man to ascend" to the "Holy of Holies".
Sorry this is long -but for this it is short, really. There is so much more one can find in the Word for themselves about the One Way Plan for Redemption of the lost kingdom and the lost seed in Adam.
No human being ascended to the throne prepared for "man" and "ben Adam" until the New Man descended as YHWH come in flesh of the second creation to ascend to that throne and share the inheritance He redeemed back, for the Father's glory, with all the adopted sons, who are born again into His Living New Man Spirit.
All who are redeemed will be “seated in the heavenlies” in the New Man, and will sit on their thrones of honor/glory, and will inherit the earth which Adam was given, which our head sold, which the New Man ransomed.
The uniting of heaven with earth, when the Father and the Son are united together in the Redeemed, when the heavens and the earth are regenerated, is the Restoration the Son of Man/Son of God is come in human flesh to be the Redeemer of, for the reason of the restoring of the lost kingdom back for the Glory of the Father to indwell.
That is why Zion, the City of God, comes down from God out of heaven to earth as the Celestial Meeting place, forever, of the redeemed and the Glory, when there will be no more temple in the heavenlies, but God and the Lamb, only, with the City of God as the True Holy of Holies forever, which was patterned in the oracles Moses was given to copy, as a teacher of these things.
the regenerated heaven’s uniting with the regenerated earth in “One” is the theme of redemption.
The uniting of the Father and the Son in “One” as Jesus prayed in John 17, was promised by the Word in Enoch 105;
Earth’s spiritual dominion is the lowest heaven, where the Mount of the LORD is, where the Son is now seated as the ascended Son of Man [Psalm 2], which Adam lost ascension to by his failing the testing in the Garden, which Garden is that Holy Mount Zion, called the throne of the Righteous Holy One.
The New Man was tried, and is the “Tried Stone” who is the Chief Foundation Stone of the New Man which is to rule the dominion Adam lost.
Redemption is back -to what was, in Adam, but lost, and to what is restored in Israel, the New Man, who is YHWH the Word, come in a second human being creation body of flesh to be brother to Adam to legally serve as Kinsman/Redeemer and to keep the inheritance given the man and ‘son of Adam’ from being lost forever.
Hannah understood this, as she has read the writings of wisdom given to Enoch, and she prayed this prayer gleaned from Enoch’s writings [which the Psalmist later also copied ];
God gave the earth to Adam -and ben Adam; forever, and the dominion of the heavenlies connected to this earth was to be Adam’s forever, but Adam fell as son of God and got kicked out of the dominion of the heavenlies, the Mount of the LORD, where the Throne of earth’s Son of Man/Son of God was empty until the New Man came and ascended.
He already was seated in the created highest heaven as YHWH, the Word, on the Throne of YHWH, and was the Glory of God whom no created being could even look into the face of, who was to come in human flesh of the second creation and is come and shall come.
Now He is also seated on Mount Zion, the realm of the heavenlies of this earth’s spiritual dominion, which Adam lost, as the Firstborn of earth, the Beloved Son of Man/son of God, YHWH come as our Redeemer and Hero, to do for us what no Adam could do for himself nor for any other. With the spiritual dominion lost, the Glory of the Father departed, and the earth became corrupt and sin and death were masters of the kingdom.
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Adam was made son of God [Luke 3:38], with a dominion -but he also had to pass the testing to come into his full promised inheritance. He failed and we all died in him, our head.
To receive the inheritance we lost in Adam we must be born from above into the Living Spirit of the Living Son of Man/Son of God who has ransomed it back for the Glory of the Father.
He formed it to be inhabited with sons of God “human -kind“, for the Father‘s Glory to indwell, as His house not made with hands.
The Redeemer ransoms the lost kingdom and shares the inheritance of the Father with all who are born into His New Man Spirit.
.To ascend to Mount Zion above is to get back the authority in the New Man which is lost in Adam.
The Living Oracles teach all these things and there is only One Plan and One Name given in which all must enter into the inheritance we lost in Adam.
Today is the Day of Salvation -the call is given to all to come into His Life, while it is still “Today” the “Acceptable Year of the LORD“, in which all are invited to enter into the gates of the City of God through the “Strait Gate” the bound New Man body, as our Mercy Seat, and now our “Throne of Grace” to which all may come unto in His name to find grace to help in time of need.
You will find the City of God which He has prepared for those who hate the evil and long for the righteous to have been seen by Enoch [and by all the patriarchs, as Hebrews tells us] and that Enoch longed to go there and was granted that, and was the first one taken there [as the firstborn seed of Christ who is raised to his father’s name [unto Adam] according to the biblical law of Kinsman/Redeemer], and he was translated in body, given garments of glory/eternal life and transported to that City in the future, built upon the Chief Cornerstone and the Apostles and prophets.
That city is coming down to the regenerated earth, and there will be no heavenly temple as there is now, for God and the Lamb are the temple thereof.
patman
Active member
Nothing is more important than elevating the word above all other writings when it comes to Christian study.
Using outside sources is OK, but not to the level that we call those sources scripture too.
If you cannot defend your views without extra books and without calling them scripture too, you will never understand the Bible. It will always be a tainted view of the word, tainted by a flawed man's writings.
Paul's mystery was hidden from all ages all prophets before his day. Nothing of the mystery was ever known before Paul. He said it was revealed to him, the dispensation of grace for the gentiles.
Using outside sources is OK, but not to the level that we call those sources scripture too.
If you cannot defend your views without extra books and without calling them scripture too, you will never understand the Bible. It will always be a tainted view of the word, tainted by a flawed man's writings.
Paul's mystery was hidden from all ages all prophets before his day. Nothing of the mystery was ever known before Paul. He said it was revealed to him, the dispensation of grace for the gentiles.
patman said:
The mystery of the Church Age was in the valley of the mountain peaks of prophecy that revealed the First and Second Coming of Christ. The mystery is the Church and the gospel of Grace, not Paul's gospel as opposed to Peter/John/James' gospel. It was revealed to him, but also to the disciples of Jesus after the resurrection (they did not expand on it in detail like Paul did).
patman
Active member
godrulz said:
A lot of things cause me to disagree with this assessment. For one a lot of the time Jesus lived in was prophesied about. Including his death, and would have been return as King 7 years later. The nation of Israel was to go through a lot of hardship, and this was to happen to the church of that age.
Yet grace to the gentiles and Israel being grafted out for a time as is today is a new thing for Paul in his day, a message he even had to tell the 12 about. It was something new
patman said:
If you would practice that you wouldn't be following MAD doctrine, for it is not found in the Word of God.
You follow men's writings who teach things which are refuted by the OT and NT and by the book the doctrine of Messiah and His kingdom is based upon, the writings of Enoch,.
Paul never said any such thing which you said above. It is not what the Word says at all.
Nothing was revealed to Paul alone, and there was no such thing as a dispensation of grace for the gentiles reveealed to Paul in any verse of the Word anywhere.
The Hidden God who was the Hidden Son of Man/Son of God who was to come was revealed to Paul as Jesus Christ, by the LORD, Himself. And nothing more was revealed to Paul than understandings from the Written Word of God from the OT and the Hidden in God from the beginning Son of MAN as defined in Enoch's writings, which Paul specializes in, and serves as a scribe of what he read about the Hidden One in Enoch.
Paul's words are directly from Enoch's writings on the Hidden Son of Man who was kept secret until His revealing -which revealing is His coming in flesh of the New -second- Creation Human Being kind as Kinsman to perform the duty of Ransoming and redeeming the lost seed in Adam and their kingdom.
Egypt once knew the writings of Enoch and worshipped the Hidden True God as the AMEN, and they corrupted the knowledge they had of Him as Paul wrote about in Romans 1; still, Jesus calls Himself the AMEN, in Revelation, the "Hidden God", who is the TRUTH, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ is coming to the world, but to the elect He is revealed as Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit who witnesses Him to we who are born again; Paul got the direct revelation of Him in Person as the last and least called eyewitness of His Name [The Come in Human Flesh Son of God, the NEw and Second and Only Living Beloved Son of God] which Paul was called to bear before Gentiles, Kings, and the Jews....as the last and least Apostle who was an eyewitness, but as "one born out of due season", who did not live with, eat with, travel with, hear personally, see personally day by day, sleep with and learn from on a day by day basis as the twelve did do, who Paul says He is the last and least of, for that reason.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
He is also the Hidden MANNA, represented by the pot of MANNA placed within the Ark of the Covenant which did not rot, as that which was gathered did do if not used the same day.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
He is the Word of God made flesh, who was the Hidden in God "Arrow to be launched" against the wicked on the day of judgment, in both Enoch and in Revelation, who slays the wicked by the Word of His mouth, Whose Word is an Eternal Damning Lake of Fire binding the unrepentant and the fallen angels and their offspring forever and whose Word is a River of Life to those born of His Living Water.
In Corinthians, Paul speaks of the Apostles of the LORD which includes himself, and he says "we preach/tell the Wisdom, God in mystery, hidden, which God ordained before the world for our glory. That statement is directly referring to the Hidden God, who was the Hidden in God Son of Man/Son of God whom Enoch saw, who was "from the beginning" ordained for our Glory and who was concealed until His revealing, which was His coming in human being flesh of the second Creation as Kinsman/Redeemer.
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http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=2&verse=7&version=KJV#7
patman said:
Jesus' New Man Creation Human Being body is the true "Throne of Grace Seat of God's Mercy" prepared for all Adamkind's acceptance before the Father, in Him, as adopted sons.
He is the Grace prepared for the redemption back for the glory of the Father for all Adam before Adam was even made, in the beginning.
His coming in flesh was the Headstone of the New Man Temple for the Father's Glory to indwell, brought forth with the shouts of Grace! Grace! -to Jews and to Gentiles the angels proclaimed He is come, as the Gospel to all men.
Isaiah 49 says He, Israel, the New Man, is come to be the Revelation to the Gentiles and to bring back the lost sheep of Israel [they were not all lost to Him], for the Glory.
patman
Active member
thelaqachisnext said:
Thank you for the shorter post.
These verses show the Mystery to which Paul refers to was hidden until his day:
Romans 16
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
Ephesians 3
5 [the mystery] which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
.........................
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Colossians 1:6 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
You must see, the mystery was not revealed to Enoch, Paul clearly says it was only revealed to us, those to follow Paul's ministry.
Read what I wrote about the Hidden from the beginning Son of Man above -Paul never claimed anywhere to be the first to have the revelation of the "Great Mystery of Godliness" God come in flesh, seen by angels, received up into Glory"; Paul saw Him as the "Come in Flesh God" last of all the Apostles, and Peter confessed Him as that Son of God, the Messiah of Enoch's writings long before Paul saw Him. John and the 11 handled Him, Paul never could, as one born "out of season".patman said:
Enoch never saw the Hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man/Son of God come in flesh -which is the Revealing[/B]. His coming in flesh was the Gospel [Good News!] to all men.
Until He came in human flesh of the second Creation His human flesh was not "SEEN" for it was not! He was from the beginning, but His human flesh body to indwell "was not".
Now it is, and always shall be.
Enoch saw Him as the Hidden in God from the Beginning mystery, who was to come, who was with God and was God.
He learned His Name and He was granted eternal Life in His Name and is in the City of God as the firstborn seed of Christ, raised up by Christ to his own father's name [to Adam's name].
When we who are born again in Christ depart our old Adam bodies and go to the City of God, Zion above, to wait for the regenerated bodies in the image of the New Man, we will be with Enoch, who is born again in Spirit and translated in body in the image of Adam before the fall, to fulfill the biblical law of Kinsman, so that the inheritance is not lost, which Adam was given.
Enoch went to the City first, which all other redeemed souls who departed their old Adam man had to wait to go to, in Sheol below [but in comfort] which could not happen until after the Atonement -which Atonement is this "Season of the Acceptable Sacrifice" which ended the remembrance of Sin, before the Presence of His Glory in the heavenlies.
Jesus led Captivity Captive when He ascended, taking those Spirits of the just men who waited in captivity of the first death of separation from the Glory, to Zion above, when He ascended, where they are now waiting for their adoption bodies, along with every redeemed soul who has died since the Ascension of the LORD Jesus on Resurrection Firstfruits Day.
patman
Active member
thelaqachisnext said:
You plainly said Enoch knew the mystery, and that Paul quoted him. Paul Plainly said the mystery was hidden from generations before. So there is a clear contradiction in Enoch's understanding of the mystery and Paul, OR Paul never quoted Enoch when he spoke of the mystery.
Could it be that Paul heard of the Mystery from God, rather than Enoch?
And please read my words carefully, the mystery was revealed in Paul's day is what I said. Peter was told about Grace, but Paul was the one who received the revelation unto the Gentiles... Peter was very slow getting this NEW message. Paul had to tell him about it again and again, even in front of others he had to withstand him to his face because Peter didn't really get it.
But more on this later, for now, Paul's Mystery was unknown to Enoch.
Divided into two, below.
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patman said:
Here's a division of the post.
341 words for you;
Paul quoted from Enoch's writings, and Enoch saw the Hidden in God Son of Man -as the Hidden mystery, but I have never stated that Enoch saw Him in flesh, which is the "Revealing", or unveiling of the Son of Man/Son of God, when He is "YHWH SEEN" in human flesh of the second creation.
Better read my own posts carefully, for I have never claimed that the Son of Man was "unveiled" as the Mystery until the appointed Season of His Revelation to Adamkind as Kinsman/Redeemer, brother, God.
You are saying Paul said things Paul never said and frankly, as I have stated already, the MAD doctrine paul is not the Paul of Scripture, for MAD puts words in the mouth of a pseudo paul which the Paul of Scripture never said.
The Mystery was the Hidden in God from the Beginning Son of MAN/Son of God, now come n flesh and revealed to the "elect" only; but coming to the world to be revealed to the world, when every eye in hell and on earth will behold Him -and all the wicked will tremble and cry for their "mountains' of spiritual idolatry to cover them and hide them from the face of the Son of Man come in His Father's Glory.
Because Enoch saw Him as the Hidden in God mystery Son of Man who was to come, who was with God and was God from the beginning, John and Peter can proclaim Him as that Messiah in flesh, the Son of God.
Paul never was above Peter and was last and least of the Apostles, by his own confession.
Paul never handled the Flesh of the New Man as God come in flesh as the 12 Apostles did. Paul never ate with Him, slept with Him, walked with Him, and talked with Him in His flesh; but Paul did get the revelation of Him as God in flesh, the formerly Hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man who was to come, is come, and shall come.
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And here is the rest -522 words.
The Greek supports the doctrine of the Son of Man as the Hidden in God from the beginning mystery now come in flesh and revealed to the elect -as Enoch wrote of Him when he "saw" him as the Mystery who was to come, who was with God, and was God.
Jesus quotes Enoch about Himself and the doctrine of Himself as the Messiah, the Son of Man/Son of God, who left His glory which He had with the Father from the beginning to come in human felsh of the second creation to be the Redeemer because He came as Kinsman to Redeem [one word, in Hebrew ga'al, is Kinsman/Redeemer], to bring the many to Glory who were lost at the fall -whosoever will may come.
Jesus came for Gentiles before Paul even knew who He was.
Jesus ministered to Gentiles in His life, to many of them in many places.
Jesus healed Gentiles and Gentiles came to His Light before Paul even saw the Light of His glory.
Jesus' Apostles were ministering to Gentiles before Paul even knew who He was.
Jesus' many, many, disciples spread the Gospel all over the entire world without even knowing who Paul was, for the Gospel was spread over the entire globe wherever men dwelt, in the first century [and travel to the entire globe was done in the centuries preceding the birth of the New/Second Man], and the same one Gospel will continue to be preached in the whole world in the whole age until He comes, to end this age.
But Paul's traveling companion was Barnabus, brother to Mary, who was at the tomb and saw Jesus on the resurrection morning, and in whose house the disciples were gathered, praying for Peter's release from Prison [and Mark, Mary's son, and Barnabas, a disciple of the LORD, were there, and they were all Peter's friends; and Paul learned about Jesus' sayings and doings from his associations with the beloved brethren in the LORD who did minister to Saul, the former persecuter of the brethren who was joined to them by the regeneration of Spirit granted to Him by the Mercy and Grace of the LORD Jesus, which ended the persecution of the Church for that season.
MAD is distorted and misleading doctrine, which has no biblical foundation, for Paul of Scripture was a Born Again Pentecostal Jew who circumcised Timothy, a half Jew, with his own hands, and who spoke in tongues, sang in tongues, and said "do not forbid to speak in tongues"; who took vows according to the law of Moses after his regeneration of Spirit, and kept them, who offered sacrifices in the temple to perform those vows according to Moses, who confessed that he had never departed from Moses after he was born again in Christ, and taught Jews to not become uncircumcised if called to Jesus in the circumcision, and taught Gentiles to not become circumcised if called to Jesus, but who circumcised Timothy before he took him on evangelization trips with him and Barnabas, because all Jews considered Timothy born "in the circumcision" with only a Jewish mother.
The Greek supports the doctrine of the Son of Man as the Hidden in God from the beginning mystery now come in flesh and revealed to the elect -as Enoch wrote of Him when he "saw" him as the Mystery who was to come, who was with God, and was God.
Jesus quotes Enoch about Himself and the doctrine of Himself as the Messiah, the Son of Man/Son of God, who left His glory which He had with the Father from the beginning to come in human felsh of the second creation to be the Redeemer because He came as Kinsman to Redeem [one word, in Hebrew ga'al, is Kinsman/Redeemer], to bring the many to Glory who were lost at the fall -whosoever will may come.
Jesus came for Gentiles before Paul even knew who He was.
Jesus ministered to Gentiles in His life, to many of them in many places.
Jesus healed Gentiles and Gentiles came to His Light before Paul even saw the Light of His glory.
Jesus' Apostles were ministering to Gentiles before Paul even knew who He was.
Jesus' many, many, disciples spread the Gospel all over the entire world without even knowing who Paul was, for the Gospel was spread over the entire globe wherever men dwelt, in the first century [and travel to the entire globe was done in the centuries preceding the birth of the New/Second Man], and the same one Gospel will continue to be preached in the whole world in the whole age until He comes, to end this age.
But Paul's traveling companion was Barnabus, brother to Mary, who was at the tomb and saw Jesus on the resurrection morning, and in whose house the disciples were gathered, praying for Peter's release from Prison [and Mark, Mary's son, and Barnabas, a disciple of the LORD, were there, and they were all Peter's friends; and Paul learned about Jesus' sayings and doings from his associations with the beloved brethren in the LORD who did minister to Saul, the former persecuter of the brethren who was joined to them by the regeneration of Spirit granted to Him by the Mercy and Grace of the LORD Jesus, which ended the persecution of the Church for that season.
MAD is distorted and misleading doctrine, which has no biblical foundation, for Paul of Scripture was a Born Again Pentecostal Jew who circumcised Timothy, a half Jew, with his own hands, and who spoke in tongues, sang in tongues, and said "do not forbid to speak in tongues"; who took vows according to the law of Moses after his regeneration of Spirit, and kept them, who offered sacrifices in the temple to perform those vows according to Moses, who confessed that he had never departed from Moses after he was born again in Christ, and taught Jews to not become uncircumcised if called to Jesus in the circumcision, and taught Gentiles to not become circumcised if called to Jesus, but who circumcised Timothy before he took him on evangelization trips with him and Barnabas, because all Jews considered Timothy born "in the circumcision" with only a Jewish mother.
John read Enoch,and reported about the Messiah, the Christ;
Jhn 1:1 ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:14¶And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Isaiah says about Him;
Isa 40:3¶The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
He is the Glory of God. Enoch saw the Glory of God in heaven above, in His temple.
He has never spoken in secret, from the beginning. He was there, from the beginning, who was to come and is now come as the Glory of God come in flesh of the second human being creation as our Redeemer to bring us back to our God for His glory.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
It is the LORD Jesus who has spoken from the beginning as the Word of God who was to come in flesh and is come and shall come;
Jhn 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning.
Paul agrees with John and Enoch;
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;[/B]
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:1 ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:14¶And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Isaiah says about Him;
Isa 40:3¶The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
He is the Glory of God. Enoch saw the Glory of God in heaven above, in His temple.
He has never spoken in secret, from the beginning. He was there, from the beginning, who was to come and is now come as the Glory of God come in flesh of the second human being creation as our Redeemer to bring us back to our God for His glory.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
It is the LORD Jesus who has spoken from the beginning as the Word of God who was to come in flesh and is come and shall come;
Jhn 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning.
Paul agrees with John and Enoch;
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;[/B]
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Enoch saw Him as the Hidden in God Son of Man, who was with God and who was God, and who was from the beginning Hid in God;
Chapter 46]
1 And there I saw One who had a head of days,
And His head was white like wool,
And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man,
And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels.
2 And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me:
This is the son of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,
[Chapter 48]
1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness
Which was inexhaustible:
And around it were many fountains of wisdom:
And all the thirsty drank of them,
And were filled with wisdom,
And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.
2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.
3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.
6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.
Chapter 46]
1 And there I saw One who had a head of days,
And His head was white like wool,
And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man,
And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels.
2 And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me:
This is the son of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,
[Chapter 48]
1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness
Which was inexhaustible:
And around it were many fountains of wisdom:
And all the thirsty drank of them,
And were filled with wisdom,
And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.
2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.
3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.
6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.
And it's going to be fearful for the wicked when He is revealed to the world at his coming, as Enoch reports;
[Chapter 62]
1 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said:
' Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One.'
2 And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,
And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,
And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,
And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.
3 And there shall stand up in that day all the kings and the mighty,
And the exalted and those who hold the earth,
And they shall see and recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory,
And righteousness is judged before him,
And no lying word is spoken before him.
4 Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail,
[And she has pain in bringing forth]
When her child enters the mouth of the womb,
And she has pain in bringing forth.
And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory.
6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden.
7 For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden,
And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might,
And revealed him to the elect.
[Chapter 62]
1 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said:
' Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One.'
2 And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,
And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,
And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,
And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.
3 And there shall stand up in that day all the kings and the mighty,
And the exalted and those who hold the earth,
And they shall see and recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory,
And righteousness is judged before him,
And no lying word is spoken before him.
4 Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail,
[And she has pain in bringing forth]
When her child enters the mouth of the womb,
And she has pain in bringing forth.
And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory.
6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden.
7 For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden,
And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might,
And revealed him to the elect.
patman
Active member
Laq,
Thanks for trying at least... but the amount of reading is still the same. I just don't have a lot of time to read a really long post and respond to everything.. plus the longer the post the more points there are to respond to, and then we are lost in debate rather than discussion.
Could you just address the one point I responded to you with and see if I agree before we move on to all that other stuff?
Otherwise, it will be a week before I get back to you.
Thanks for trying at least... but the amount of reading is still the same. I just don't have a lot of time to read a really long post and respond to everything.. plus the longer the post the more points there are to respond to, and then we are lost in debate rather than discussion.
Could you just address the one point I responded to you with and see if I agree before we move on to all that other stuff?
Otherwise, it will be a week before I get back to you.
I did, that whole thing is the response from Scripture showing that the understanding of Paul, Peter, and John, as I pasted passages from their writings, were about the Hidden in God from the Beginning Son of Man -and I didn't give you nearly all they got from Enoch about the Son of Man who was to come and be revealed to the elect, and so on.patman said:
You said;
.
It is impossible for Paul to have made up another different revelation than the One promised in Enoch, which Paul is well versed in the writings of, and Paul quoted Enoch almost verbatim many times -esp about the Hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man/Son of God who is come in flesh.
The Hid in God Mystery, kept secret until His revealing is the son of Man; Paul states the same words He read in Enoch about the Son of Man who is the Son of God, who was to come and is come, who revealed Himself to Paul last and least of all the Apostles who were to bear His Name as eyewitnesses of His coming in flesh as the Glory of God, and as our Salvation.
What is the Mystery Hidden in God from the Beginning? -The Son of Man who was to come!~
Who saw Him last of all the Apostles who were to be eyewitnesses of His coming in flesh as the Glory of God and as our Salvation? -Paul!
Now please go back and see the overwhelming evidence for the Word that the Son of Man/Son of God come in human flesh is the Revelation of the "Hidden in God from the Beginning son of Man who was with God and was God, and who was to come and is come and shall come, and who was seen as the mystery who was "from the beginning hidden, concealed, kept secret" Son of Man -who was to come to be revealed to the elect, and so on.
Paul, John, and Peter agree about Who the Son of Man is, who was from the beginning.
Note John and Paul's almost identical statements about the fellowship in the Son, with the Father;
-me;
John read Enoch,and reported about the Messiah, the Christ;
Jhn 1:1 ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:14¶And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Isaiah says about Him;
Isa 40:3¶The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
He is the Glory of God. Enoch saw the Glory of God in heaven above, in His temple.
He has never spoken in secret, from the beginning. He was there, from the beginning, who was to come and is now come as the Glory of God come in flesh of the second human being creation as our Redeemer to bring us back to our God for His glory.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
It is the LORD Jesus who has spoken from the beginning as the Word of God who was to come in flesh and is come and shall come;
Jhn 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning.
Paul agrees with John and Enoch;
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;[/B]
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
