The "without cause" hermeneutic.

[CabinetMaker]

The simple observation that homos are perverts forces anyone who hears the statement to make a judgment. Generally a homo will direct judgment toward the person who made the statement.

CabinetMaker - is the judgment of this type of person correct?

What do you mean by judgment? Saying that their life style is a sin before God and telling them that directly is a good judgment. Telling them God wants them dead because they are gay is a bad judgment. Under the Old Covenant, God wanted them killed. Under the New Testament, God wants them to repent of their sin and return to Him.

 

[Aimey]

I find that my confrontation of another person is more fruitful when I know them and speak to them according to thier bent. Some people are prone to respond to mild criticism while others are so hardened they must be cornered by thier lies and even then they will not repent.

Jesus knew exactly who would be moved by His name calling and harsh rebukes and in most of the cituations the crowd was more positively influenced than the one being criticised.

 

[Stripe]

What do you mean by judgment?

My question was about their judgment of the fact that being a homo is perverted. If they questioned the motives of the person saying that .. would their response be appropriate.

Saying that their life style is a sin before God and telling them that directly is a good judgment. Telling them God wants them dead because they are gay is a bad judgment. Under the Old Covenant, God wanted them killed. Under the New Testament, God wants them to repent of their sin and return to Him.

I think God wanted people to repent throughout history. Why would you say He changed His view on people in the new testament?

 

[CabinetMaker]

My question was about their judgment of the fact that being a homo is perverted. If they questioned the motives of the person saying that .. would their response be appropriate.

Sorry, but I'm not tracking here. If they (the homosexual) questioned the motives of the person saying that (the witness) .. would their (who's) response be appropriate.

I think God wanted people to repent throughout history. Why would you say He changed His view on people in the new testament?

Israel was called to repentance repeatedly and when they did they were blessed. However, Mosaic law called for stoning for several offense. The New Testament does not. While Christ affirms the that the penalty was part of the Mosaic Law, neither He nor the Apostles ever call for it to continue or advocate for its use against anyone.

 

[colin73]

That's because she accepted Him, immediately.

No she didn't (the woman at the well). She played all the cards she had, argued with him on many levels, and he responded to each argument without resorting to name calling. If she were on TOL, she might not have got that far.

When people who knew the law well and acted as God's representatives, such as the pharisees, erred in their ways, Jesus rebuked them harshly.

If Jesus encountered a sinful individual who had no knowledge of the law, He was much more gentle.

I agree. Maybe we need to use some name calling on some of the TOL pharisees?

Are you serious? Do the phrases, [Jesus]"sons of hell," "children of your father the devil," "brood of vipers,"[/Jesus] and [Jesus]"whitewashed tombs,"[/Jesus] mean anything to you?

Go Jesus!

BS

I assume by this you meant 'Bible Study' as in you're urging us all to devote ourselves to further study to see if the claims made are true?

I find that my confrontation of another person is more fruitful when I know them...

I think this is true. While I agree that truth is truth, there are unloving ways to speak the truth, otherwise we wouldn't be told to "Speak the truth in love" It'd be like if I said "I think I'll go for a swim... in water ... the wet kind"

Usually speaking the truth in love requires knowing and loving the person before speaking. For Jesus this was helped along by his divine abilities.

To refuse to befriend someone before you judge them is just lazy. Remember Jesus' nickname was "Friend of Sinners" not "Friend of Repenters"

 

[Stripe]

Sorry, but I'm not tracking here. If they (the homosexual) questioned the motives of the person saying that (the witness) .. would their (who's) response be appropriate.

The homo (or anyone supporting him).

Israel was called to repentance repeatedly and when they did they were blessed. However, Mosaic law called for stoning for several offense. The New Testament does not. While Christ affirms the that the penalty was part of the Mosaic Law, neither He nor the Apostles ever call for it to continue or advocate for its use against anyone.

They didn't have to call for it to continue. You have to show how they repealed it.

 

[Stripe]

No she didn't (the woman at the well). She played all the cards she had, argued with him on many levels, and he responded to each argument without resorting to name calling. If she were on TOL, she might not have got that far.

or you could be wrong... :idunno:

I agree. Maybe we need to use some name calling on some of the TOL pharisees?

Do you know any?

 

[Frank Ernest]

Luke 10:3-12. If the sinful won't listen, they're on their own.

 

[DoogieTalons]

So is it still a cood cause to rebuke the Christian for believing in ridicoulas creation myths as facts ?

Is it a good enough cause to rebuke a Christian for believing that all the dumb stuff in the bible is litteral that makes no sense, Adam and Eve, Noah, Babel, The Birth Death Resurection of a God.. person who is God but not god who died but didn't cos God wouldn't be a God if he could die... who died in the flesh... but again didn't because he's still alive.... who spent 33 years on this miserable planet only to go back to paradise with himself for another 2000 years watching whilst the world murders millions of it's unborn per year... I mean really when's he gonna come back and sort us out eh ??? couple of million more needed to break the camels back ???

Come off it I rebuke you all for believing in this asinine stuff. Sort yourselves out.
You can't even agree amongst yourself your message is that incomprehensible.

You tell other Chrisitians they are baby killer, perverts and demons but act like demon's yourselves ( You know who you are )

Is it a good enough Cause to rebuke you all because your minds have been indoctrinated beyond repair or is it only the Christians that can rebuke because the "Good book" says so ?

Just a question... do you have the monopoly on rebuking ?

 

[CabinetMaker]

The homo (or anyone supporting him).


They didn't have to call for it to continue. You have to show how they repealed it.

I'm headed out the door for skiing now but look at the Last Supper. Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His blood. That new Covenant has two commandments, not 613+.

 

[CRASH]

I'm headed out the door for skiing now but look at the Last Supper. Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His blood. That new Covenant has two commandments, not 613+.

Our disagreement comes from the fact that you wrongly divide the Word.:think:

 

[Lighthouse]

I have respect for all you have said up til this statement. This one point you are making is generally true, however, I am hesitant to present such an argument for reasons to beleive for we also die from terrible sicknesses which cannot be proven to be any less from God merely because we say it isn't.

For me to say, "We're not dying of AIDS, or raising children who turn out to become junkies and alchoholics, or daughters who end up infertile because they were foolish enough to have an abortion." is so full of presumption and haughty
self righteousness that none of us can presume it to be true. Any one of us no matter how great of a parent we are could through strange circumstance become infected with the AIDS virus, or raise a foolish child who is just rebellious and goes thier own way.

I hope there are at least a few parents out ther who are willing to admit that thier children are not angels and could rebell.
I pray mine don't, but I don't assume that thier salvation or thier good behavior is in the bag.

Actually, I just couldn't think of anything else to say at the moment. But what I said is still generally true.

Bottom line is, we have a hope that they don't. And if they don't see it, it isn't because we aren't showing it. It's because they don't want to see it.

He's still here. So are you. Do you want to rejoice at the return of the prodigal son or do want to keep him out because you think he is not worthy?

Actually he's not. But that's beside the point. If he comes to God, I will rejoice. But he's not a prodigal. He was never with God.

And God said he isn't worthy. That's not my call. Nobody's worthy. Not even you. And not even me. But I can't keep you out of Heaven, and you can't keep me out. Just like we can't keep Percy out. But he can certainly keep himself out. which seems to be just to his liking. And if that's what he wants, I can't change that. All I can do is tell him he's not good as he thinks he is. And he has no hope of being good outside of Christ. Right now he's just filthy. He doesn't believe that, though. But he needs to. He needs to know it, so he sees that he needs to be cleaned up.

Are you fit to make that judgment? I know full well that many will not be saved. But while I am here I will do my best to give a good witness for Christ. I will not give up on Presephone66 or any other non-believer as long as they keep coming back. He' still here. What should we do? Ban him because he is gay or witness to him that Jesus wants better for him than death by aids?

Jesus wants better for him than what he has now, whether he gets AIDS or not. And even if he does contract it, Jesus still wants better for him than what he has.

It isn't about the misery he could have, it's about the misery he has currently. The misery he denies. And until he quits denying it there is no leading him to the One Who will take it away.

Within the Christian community as a whole, people are dying of aids at 35, raising junkies and alcoholics and having abortions. I have talked to several people who call themselves Christians and live a life that many would consider a Christian life. Yet they have had abortions. They have raised sons that have become junkies. They raised them in the church and Christ and God are active in their lives. They have never stopped praying for their sons to come to Christ and rise above the sin in their lives. And yet it happened.

I know it has. My best friend was raised in a Christian home, and he's a junkie and an alcoholic. He's also been involved, sexually, with a number of women.

But that's not generally what happens. And if he was actually living for God, he wouldn't be doing these things. Which is the point. He's not showing that he has hope, because he's not living in that hope.

One of the very saddest facts of in America today is that the statistics for abortion, divorce, alcoholism, drug addiction is virtually the same between society as a whole and the Christian community. What does that say of our witness for Christ?

It says that most people who call themselves Christians don't know Christ.

 

[Lighthouse]

Based on what I have seen on TOL, yes. I qualify that because I do not now you outside of this setting. I have seen you offer some pretty good encouragement to people. I have never seen anything that would lead me to believe that you want anything other than execution for a gay whether they come to Christ or not. Homosexual sex is a sin like any other sin. It is a sin that Christ died to forgive.

And yet Christ did not die so that people could commit crimes and get away with them.

He died for their sins. He didn't die so a murderer, whether they repent or not, could continue walking the streets. In fact, He didn't die so they could go on living in the flesh. He died so we could go on living in Him, spiritually.

All spoken to the Pharisees who were all of those things. Teachers, as the Bible says, are held to a much higher standard than the common man. There is no record of Jesus ever insulting a common man to get them to repent.

CRASH already answered this.

The more we condemn people the better the chance they will never turn to Christ! If all they ever hear is how much God hates them because they are such vile sinners, why would they ever want to know Him. Rebuke must be balanced with compassion and teaching about the hope they have in Christ. We are all only worthy of death and yet Jesus died that we would live. He did that for everybody. Not all will come to Christ. I just don't to stand before God and have Him ask me, "Why did you drive my son away form me?"

We all need to hear it, because it's the truth. We need to know that we need cleansing, so that we seek it, so we are willing to hear those who have hope, and know where to find cleansing. If we don't think we are unrighteous, why would we think we need to cleansed from all unrighteousness?

And Percy is not God's son. He is God's enemy. For he is at enmity with God.

 

[Lighthouse]

No she didn't (the woman at the well). She played all the cards she had, argued with him on many levels, and he responded to each argument without resorting to name calling. If she were on TOL, she might not have got that far.

Actually, as soon as He told her who He was, she accepted Him.

So is it still a cood cause to rebuke the Christian for believing in ridicoulas creation myths as facts?

You can't even prove it's a myth. All you have is that you believe it is.

Is it a good enough cause to rebuke a Christian for believing that all the dumb stuff in the bible is litteral that makes no sense, Adam and Eve, Noah, Babel, The Birth Death Resurection of a God.. person who is God but not god who died but didn't cos God wouldn't be a God if he could die... who died in the flesh... but again didn't because he's still alive.... who spent 33 years on this miserable planet only to go back to paradise with himself for another 2000 years watching whilst the world murders millions of it's unborn per year... I mean really when's he gonna come back and sort us out eh ??? couple of million more needed to break the camels back ???

Just because it's unbelievable doesn't mean it isn't true. And God [the Son] did die. Plain and simple. And His resurrection also doesn't mean He didn't die. If He hadn't, then He could not have resurrected. And He'll come back at the moment He has planned to. And you won't be expecting Him.

Come off it I rebuke you all for believing in this asinine stuff. Sort yourselves out.

If anyone is being asinine it's you.

You can't even agree amongst yourself your message is that incomprehensible.

You're an idiot. The disagreements are not about the comprehensibility of the message. It's about people not wanting to believe what the Bible says. Whether they call themselves Christians or not.

You tell other Chrisitians they are baby killer, perverts and demons but act like demon's yourselves ( You know who you are )

Some of them are. Just because they use a label doesn't mean they fall under that category. They are using His name in vain.

Is it a good enough Cause to rebuke you all because your minds have been indoctrinated beyond repair or is it only the Christians that can rebuke because the "Good book" says so?

:rotfl:

We're indoctrinated?

:rotfl:

:mockoogieTalons.

Just a question... do you have the monopoly on rebuking?

The issue is about people who say the Bible says we are not to judge or rebuke.

 

[Infieri]

I've been told that insulting someone for their outright contradiction of the truth is being a "bad witness". If that's true, then Jesus was a horrible witness to the Pharisees.

Is there any biblical evidence that he had any intention of witnessing to the pharisees, seeing as it seems likely they were already guilty of the blaspheme of the Spirit? He certainly did not give the impression of attributing much of his ministry's focus to them, and his "doctor for the sick, not the healthy" comment in its noteworthy context always struck me as an indication of such.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Our disagreement comes from the fact that you wrongly divide the Word.:think:

Says you. I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is helping me to understand the Scripture.

 

[DoogieTalons]

You can't even prove it's a myth. All you have is that you believe it is...

Right back at ya.

If anyone is being asinine it's you.

Whatever, listen I know the point of the thread, I was just wondering if whatever the bible says do you have the monopoly on rebuking at all, I mean it's not true anyway so rebuke away, be as harsh as you like. My post was ironic but most Americans don't seem to get it. You lost your sense of humour somewhere along the line.

The point is you can't rebuke someone who does not subscribe you your ideas if your idea of rebuking is part of that self same belief system. The again this sort of doublethink is what makes you a part of the flock.

So for what it's worth consider yourself rebuked, whether you like it or not. I rebuke you for your silly ideas, I rebuke you for continuing to propogate them and I rebuke you for not getting yourself out of it when you can obvioulsy at least use a computer and are conected to the internet...

It's for your own good. You're like a Stockholmed captive. All you have left is beligerance and that psychological condition you get when you stick to a certain brand even though you know it's gone down hill you keep defending your purchace.

I actualy pity some of you. It's like when a believer says they'll pray for me, I don't want their prayers, they may as wel prey to Zeus to save you... just as you don't need my pity. None the less I feel sorry for you and wish you could lead a life free of this stuff.

( Feeling the irony yet ? )

 

[CabinetMaker]

Right back at ya.
Whatever, listen I know the point of the thread, I was just wondering if whatever the bible says do you have the monopoly on rebuking at all, I mean it's not true anyway so rebuke away, be as harsh as you like. My post was ironic but most Americans don't seem to get it. You lost your sense of humour somewhere along the line.

The point is you can't rebuke someone who does not subscribe you your ideas if your idea of rebuking is part of that self same belief system. The again this sort of doublethink is what makes you a part of the flock.

So for what it's worth consider yourself rebuked, whether you like it or not. I rebuke you for your silly ideas, I rebuke you for continuing to propogate them and I rebuke you for not getting yourself out of it when you can obvioulsy at least use a computer and are conected to the internet...

It's for your own good. You're like a Stockholmed captive. All you have left is beligerance and that psychological condition you get when you stick to a certain brand even though you know it's gone down hill you keep defending your purchace.

I actualy pity some of you. It's like when a believer says they'll pray for me, I don't want their prayers, they may as wel prey to Zeus to save you... just as you don't need my pity. None the less I feel sorry for you and wish you could lead a life free of this stuff.

( Feeling the irony yet ? )

Though intended as irony, it illustrates the point I have been trying to make. Rebuke is meaningless in some situations and counter productive in others. If all you do is rebuke then it is entirely possible you will utterly and completely fail to have a meaningful impact on the life of an unbeliever. Your rebukes have no impact on Doogie. Might friendship?

Kick the dust from your feet and call him a dog not worthy of your pearls but remember this. TOL is a house of believers. We have opened our doors to unbelievers. The can quit coming at any time or be banned at any time. But why they are here, in our Christian community, of their own choice, then there is a chance that they will see something that changes there mind. We owe them that.

 

[Lighthouse]

Right back at ya.
Whatever, listen I know the point of the thread, I was just wondering if whatever the bible says do you have the monopoly on rebuking at all, I mean it's not true anyway so rebuke away, be as harsh as you like. My post was ironic but most Americans don't seem to get it. You lost your sense of humour somewhere along the line.

:blabla:

The point is you can't rebuke someone who does not subscribe you your ideas if your idea of rebuking is part of that self same belief system. The again this sort of doublethink is what makes you a part of the flock.

:blabla:

So for what it's worth consider yourself rebuked, whether you like it or not. I rebuke you for your silly ideas, I rebuke you for continuing to propogate them and I rebuke you for not getting yourself out of it when you can obvioulsy at least use a computer and are conected to the internet...

:squint:

It's for your own good. You're like a Stockholmed captive. All you have left is beligerance and that psychological condition you get when you stick to a certain brand even though you know it's gone down hill you keep defending your purchace.

:vomit::dog:

I actualy pity some of you. It's like when a believer says they'll pray for me, I don't want their prayers, they may as wel prey to Zeus to save you... just as you don't need my pity. None the less I feel sorry for you and wish you could lead a life free of this stuff.

I'll pray for you.

( Feeling the irony yet ? )

All I feel from you is hypocrisy, arrogance and self-righteousness.


P.S.
There's not supposed to be a space between the end of a question and the question mark.

 

[DoogieTalons]

Your rebukes have no impact on Doogie. Might friendship?

I have made friends on this site Who have given me a positive view of Christianity which I had not previously had...

Obviously Lighthouse isn't one of em.. on both counts :chuckle: