The Theory of Evolution - Part 1

bob b

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bowhunter said:
"You can't use logic on an evolutionist."

Oh yeah, I forgot. BTW, they don't even realize what you are doing to them here.

The objective of course is not to try to convince a dogmatic evolutionist that their pet theory is in shambles, but instead to demonstrate to any fencesitters listening, who may in the past have been overly impressed by arguments from authority, that there are legitimate reasons to doubt the evolutionary propaganda.

For example, I hope that some of the fencesitters would do a GOOGLE on Protein Folding Problem and research on their own a key area where progress in biology is inexorably leading to the eventual falsification of macroevolution.

Like in the USSR example, many people listen to the media too much and hence are totally surprised when the "ten foot tall" ogre suddenly collapses.
 
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ItIsWritten

New member
bob b said:
The eruption of Mount St. Helens produced many feet of stratified rocks which look millions of years old, but were produced in days or hours. Radioactive measurements of these rocks show them to be millions of years old, too.
Opps...


bob b said:
The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. It is believed DESPITE scientific evidence.
:up:
 

Johnny

New member
Bob, does the theory of evolution state, "at some time in the distant past there was no life in the universe"? Yes or no.

Perhaps the fencesitters are watching. Pay close attention to Bob's reply. He can't say no, because that would demonstrate quite clearly that he is not concerned with the truthfulness or accuracy of his material. So he must say yes. However, his "yes" reply will undoubtedly avoid at all costs supporting the notion that the theory actually says this. Instead, he will say something to the effect of "well it should say this evolutionists are just trying to escape the inevitable." What a great tactic: arguing that a theory should say something and using what you think it should say to refute it.

Why is this so important? Because dishonest (usually just ignorant, but I've promoted bob) creationists shamelessly post alleged arguments against abiogenesis and pass them off as arguments against evolution. Even if abiogenesis is completely 100% impossible, that means absolutely nothing for the theory of evolution. For a good example of this deceitful tactic, see the first post.

Behold, TOL, your knight in shining armor.
 

Lord Vader

New member
bob b said:
Everybody hold their nose now, here comes part 3
Theory of Evolution Part 3Lots of Time
Sadly, it is well known that living things can die. This has often been observed. It has NOT been scientifically demonstrated that a dead thing can come to life. Despite this, evolutionists believe that given enough time, something dead will come to life by some method or another.

No.

It has never been observed in any laboratory that mutations can cause one species to turn into another. Despite this, evolutionists believe that given enough time, some critters will eventually evolve into other critters.

No.

Evolutionists claim that although we have not actually observed these things happening, that does not mean that they are impossible. They say it simply means they are extremely improbable. It is extremely improbable that you can toss a coin and have it come up heads 100 times in a row. But if you toss coins long enough, eventually it will happen. Evolutionists think the world has been around long enough for all these highly improbable things to happen.

No.

If we observe present processes, and make the assumption that they have have been going on at the same rate since they started, we generally come to the conclusion that the Earth could not be billions of years old. Some of the processes that have been studied that give young ages for the Earth are:

Continental erosion
Sea floor sediments
Salinity of the oceans
Helium in the atmosphere
Carbon 14 in the atmosphere
Decay of the Earth's magnetic field

No.

The old ages for the Earth come primarily from the ages of rocks, which are dated by the presumed ages of the fossils in them. Radioactive measurements of rocks are based on assumptions that were chosen to make the radioactive measurements agree with the presumed ages of the fossils.

No.

The eruption of Mount St. Helens produced many feet of stratified rocks which look millions of years old, but were produced in days or hours. Radioactive measurements of these rocks show them to be millions of years old, too. But we know they were formed in 1980 because scientists saw them formed.

No.

The notion that the Earth is billions of years old is not consistent with a considerable amount of scientific observation.

No.

Conclusion
The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. It is believed DESPITE scientific evidence. Science is against the theory of evolution.

And no.
 

bob b

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Johnny said:
Bob, does the theory of evolution state, "at some time in the distant past there was no life in the universe"? Yes or no.

Perhaps the fencesitters are watching. Pay close attention to Bob's reply. He can't say no, because that would demonstrate quite clearly that he is not concerned with the truthfulness or accuracy of his material. So he must say yes. However, his "yes" reply will undoubtedly avoid at all costs supporting the notion that the theory actually says this. Instead, he will say something to the effect of "well it should say this evolutionists are just trying to escape the inevitable." What a great tactic: arguing that a theory should say something and using what you think it should say to refute it.

Why is this so important? Because dishonest (usually just ignorant, but I've promoted bob) creationists shamelessly post alleged arguments against abiogenesis and pass them off as arguments against evolution. Even if abiogenesis is completely 100% impossible, that means absolutely nothing for the theory of evolution. For a good example of this deceitful tactic, see the first post.

Behold, TOL, your knight in shining armor.

It is not clear what the theory of evolution actually states because there doesn't seem to be any single, compact, universally accepted statement of the theory to be found. In fact Ernst Mayr, one of the architects of NeoDarwinism, and an evolutionist of such distinction that Gould called him "The Darwin of the 20th Century", stated in his book, What Evolution Is that there are actually 7 theories of evolution!
 

Jukia

New member
bob b said:
It is not clear what the theory of evolution actually states because there doesn't seem to be any single, compact, universally accepted statement of the theory to be found. In fact Ernst Mayr, one of the architects of NeoDarwinism, and an evolutionist of such distinction that Gould called him "The Darwin of the 20th Century", stated in his book, What Evolution Is that there are actually 7 theories of evolution!
And how many different versions/interpretations of the Bible are there? Surely many more than 7.
 

hatsoff

New member
bowhunter said:
"But you dispute this. You seem to know exactly where life came from. The problem is, of course, that you're mistaken. What you think you know is actually false."

Ok, the guy says, that what Bob THINKS he knows is actually false. The same guy states that they do not know how it all started. HMMMM. He doesn't know, yet he knows that only ONE of them is false. Interesting, very interesting.

It's actually very natural. As we go along, we can eliminate certain possibilities without arriving at the exact truth. It's a tough concept for you, I know, but I'm sure you'll get it, in time.
 

avatar382

New member
bob b said:
It is not clear what the theory of evolution actually states because there doesn't seem to be any single, compact, universally accepted statement of the theory to be found. In fact Ernst Mayr, one of the architects of NeoDarwinism, and an evolutionist of such distinction that Gould called him "The Darwin of the 20th Century", stated in his book, What Evolution Is that there are actually 7 theories of evolution!

Here is your "single, compact, universally accepted statement" --

Definition of evolution: Alleles (genes) change in frequency over time in a population.

The gist of it: Any two distinct forms of life share a common ancestor.
 

avatar382

New member
Evolutionists claim that although we have not actually observed these things happening, that does not mean that they are impossible. They say it simply means they are extremely improbable. It is extremely improbable that you can toss a coin and have it come up heads 100 times in a row. But if you toss coins long enough, eventually it will happen. Evolutionists think the world has been around long enough for all these highly improbable things to happen.

A word about coin flips:

Say you wanted to flip a coin and get 6 heads in a row. You have a one in 64 chance of getting it on the first try, so you can expect to need 64 trials.

However, if you had 64 people doing simultaneous trials, you can expect your 6 heads in a row immediately.

Consequently, if there is an event x that has a one in one billion chance of happening, and you recruit the entire population of China to conduct simultaneous trials, you can expect X to occur quickly. If you need proof of this, consider lotteries where the chances are one in several million, but there is a lottery winner every week.

Now, if the chances of a protien molecule or whatever being formed on primitive earth are 1 x 10^100, stating that this can never happen in the history of the universe ignores the fact that trillions of liters of water on earth with countless molecules in each liter amounts to a great many simultaneous trials!
 

bob b

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You might profit from reading Bill Dembski's article, The Chance of the Gaps (The name is a "takeoff" on the oft used God of the Gaps). Here is an interesting portion.

------------------
2. Universal Probability Bounds
In the observable universe, probabilistic resources come in very limited supplies. Within the known physical universe there are estimated around 10^80 elementary particles. Moreover, the properties of matter are such that transitions from one physical state to another cannot occur at a rate faster than 10^45 times per second. This frequency corresponds to the Planck time, which constitutes the smallest physically meaningful unit of time.7 Finally, the universe itself is about a billion times younger than 10^25 seconds (assuming the universe is between ten and twenty billion years old). If we now assume that any specification of an event within the known physical universe requires at least one elementary particle to specify it and cannot be generated any faster than the Planck time, then these cosmological constraints imply that the total number of specified events throughout cosmic history cannot exceed
10^80 x 10^45 x 10^25 = 10^150.
It follows that any specified event of probability less than 1 in 10^150 will remain improbable even after all conceivable probabilistic resources from the observable universe have been factored in. A probability of 1 in 10^150 is therefore a universal probability bound.8 A universal probability bound is impervious to all available probabilistic resources that may be brought against it. Indeed, all the probabilistic resources in the known physical world cannot conspire to render remotely probable an event whose probability is less than this universal probability bound.
The universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 is the most conservative in the literature. The French mathematician Emile Borel proposed 1 in 10^50 as a universal probability bound below which chance could definitively be precluded (i.e., any specified event as improbable as this could never be attributed to chance).9 Cryptographers assess the security of cryptosystems against a brute force attack that employs as many probabilistic resources as are available in the universe to break a cryptosystem by chance. In its report on the role of cryptography in securing the information society, the National Research Council set 1 in 10^94 as its universal probability bound for ensuring the security of cryptosystems against chance-based attacks.10 Such levels of improbability are easily attained by real physical systems. It follows that if such systems are also specified and if specified complexity is a reliable empirical marker of intelligence, then these systems are designed.
Implicit in a universal probability bound such as 10^-150 is that the universe is too small a place to generate specified complexity by sheer exhaustion of possibilities. Stuart Kauffman develops this theme at length in his book Investigations.11 In one of his examples (and there are many like it throughout the book), he considers the number of possible proteins of length 200 (i.e., 20^200 or approximately 10^260) and the maximum number of pairwise collisions of particles throughout the history of the universe (he estimates 10^193 total collisions supposing the reaction rate for collisions can be measured in femtoseconds). Kauffman concludes: “The known universe has not had time since the big bang to create all possible proteins of length 200 [even] once.”12 To emphasize this point, he notes: “It would take at least 10 to the 67th times the current lifetime of the universe for the universe to manage to make all possible proteins of length 200 at least once.”13
Kauffman even has a name for numbers that are so big that they are beyond the reach of operations performable by and within the universe—he refers to them as transfinite. For instance, in discussing a small discrete dynamical system whose dynamics are nonetheless so complicated that they cannot be computed, he writes: “There is a sense in which the computations are transfinite—not infinite, but so vastly large that they cannot be carried out by any computational system in the universe.”14 Kauffman justifies such proscriptive claims in exactly the same terms that I justified the universal probability bound a moment ago. Thus as justification he looks to the Planck time, the Planck length, the radius of the universe, the number of particles in the universe, and the rate at which particles can change states.15 Kauffman’s idea of transfinite numbers is insightful, but the actual term is infelicitous because it already has currency within mathematics, where transfinite numbers are by definition infinite (in fact, the transfinite numbers of transfinite arithmetic can assume any infinite cardinality whatsoever).16 I therefore propose to call such numbers hyperfinite numbers.17
Kauffman often writes about the universe being unable to exhaust some set of possibilities. Yet at other times he puts an adjective in front of the word universe, claiming it is the known universe that is unable to exhaust some set of possibilities.18 Is there a difference between the universe (no adjective in front) and the known or observable universe (adjective in front)? To be sure, there is no empirical difference. Our best scientific observations tell us that the world surrounding us appears quite limited. Indeed, the size, duration, and composition of the known universe are such that 10150 is a hyperfinite number. For instance, if the universe were a giant computer, it could perform no more than this number of operations (quantum computation, by exploiting superposition of quantum states, enriches the operations performable by an ordinary computer but cannot change their number); if the universe were devoted entirely to generating specifications, this number would set an upper bound; if cryptographers
6
confine themselves to brute-force methods on ordinary computers to test cryptographic keys, the number of keys they can test will always be less than this number.
But what if the universe is in fact much bigger than the known universe? What if the known universe is but an infinitesimal speck within the actual universe? Alternatively, what if the known universe is but one of many possible universes, each of which is as real as the known universe but causally inaccessible to it? If so, are not the probabilistic resources needed to eliminate chance vastly increased and is not the validity of 10^–150 as a universal probability bound thrown into question? This line of reasoning has gained widespread currency among scientists and philosophers in recent years. In this paper I will to argue that this line of reasoning is fatally flawed. Indeed, I will argue that it is illegitimate to rescue chance by invoking probabilistic resources from outside the known universe. To do so artificially inflates one’s probabilistic resources.
3. The Inflationary Fallacy
Only probabilistic resources from the known universe may legitimately be employed in testing chance hypotheses. In particular, probabilistic resources imported from outside the known universe are incapable of overturning the universal probability bound of 10^–150. My basic argument to support this claim is quite simple, though I need to tailor it to some of the specific proposals now current for inflating probabilistic resources. The basic argument is this: It is never enough to postulate probabilistic resources merely to prop an otherwise failing chance hypothesis. Rather, one needs independent evidence whether there really are enough probabilistic resources to render chance plausible.
Consider, for instance, a state lottery. Suppose we know nothing about the number of lottery tickets sold and are informed simply that the lottery had a winner. Suppose further that the probability of any lottery ticket producing a winner is extremely low.

What can we conclude? Does it follow that many lottery tickets were sold? Hardly.
 

avatar382

New member
That was an interesting article - it does seem reasonable that there is a probablity so small that it is "transfinite", as the article said.

Still, the question of what the probabilty of a protien being formed, etc - and a whole slew of other related questions related to the origin of life - are all far beyond the scope of the theory of evolution, and utimately may be beyond the scope of human comprehension.
 

Johnny

New member
It is not clear what the theory of evolution actually states because there doesn't seem to be any single, compact, universally accepted statement of the theory to be found. In fact Ernst Mayr, one of the architects of NeoDarwinism, and an evolutionist of such distinction that Gould called him "The Darwin of the 20th Century", stated in his book, What Evolution Is that there are actually 7 theories of evolution!
If you are unclear on what the theory states, don't you think it would be prudent to find out what the theory actually says before posting a lie? Or maybe you subscribe to the idea that since you don't know what the theory says you're entitled to make crap up. Perhaps you could post Mayr's seven theories so we can see exactly which one contains the aforementioned statement. Maybe shalom will stand up and defend this statement, since he was quick to shower your lie with accolades.
 

bob b

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avatar382 said:
That was an interesting article - it does seem reasonable that there is a probablity so small that it is "transfinite", as the article said.

Still, the question of what the probabilty of a protien being formed, etc - and a whole slew of other related questions related to the origin of life - are all far beyond the scope of the theory of evolution, and utimately may be beyond the scope of human comprehension.

Actually we don't even have to consider how the first proteins were formed in order to cast extreme probabilistic doubt upon macroevolution.

This is because it now appears with the latest research on protein folding that the number of proteins that are "feasible", that is that will fold up and provide a function, is miniscule compared to what evolutionists had been assuming in the "random mutation plus natural selection" scenario.

They had been assuming something like one in a thousand tries would yield a "better" protein, but new research is indicating that it may be less than one in a trillion or even one in a googleplex (10^50 ?).

This means that in going from one "feasible" protein to one that is even better, as macroevolution would require, the odds are what we might call "heavily loaded against it".

Stay tuned. This area is "red hot".
 

Johnny

New member
This is because it now appears with the latest research on protein folding that the number of proteins that are "feasible", that is that will fold up and provide a function, is miniscule compared to what evolutionists had been assuming in the "random mutation plus natural selection" scenario.
This is not "latest research".

They had been assuming something like one in a thousand tries would yield a "better" protein, but new research is indicating that it may be less than one in a trillion or even one in a googleplex (10^50 ?).
Reference? Source? Or did that one come from the Make Crap Up department?
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
Johnny said:
This is not "latest research".

Reference? Source? Or did that one come from the Make Crap Up department?
You should let us in on the more recent research that you know of that contradicts it. Wouldn't that be a more powerful argument than your boo-yay method?
 

Johnny

New member
You should let us in on the more recent research that you know of that contradicts it.
I am not trying to contradict him, I am pointing out that this concept is not "new".

I've been keeping my eyes open for your posts recently. I know you recently bought a copy of "What Evolution Is", and I'm interested in some of your thoughts on it.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
Johnny said:
I am not trying to contradict him, I am pointing out that this concept is not "new".

I've been keeping my eyes open for your posts recently. I know you recently bought a copy of "What Evolution Is", and I'm interested in some of your thoughts on it.
I only got to read about 30 pages of it so far, I got sidetracked with two other books that I had to read first, but I'm getting back to it next. My kid got tested for dyslexia and has it, so I wanted to read up on that in a hurry, its really interesting, how language works in our heads and all. Anyway . . .

His intro is interesting though, he says quite shortly that evolution is 'change.' He also says he wrote the book with 3 types of readers in mind. Those who want to learn more about evolution in order to defend it, those who are questioning evolution and need to learn more, and those who want to argue against evolution. I thought that was funny.
 

Lord Vader

New member
I urge everyone to go a google search for the keywords "do proteins exist". There is growing evidence that they don't. Has anyone ever seen proof that they exist? Or did you just hear about it a lot from school teachers and the media?
 
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