ECT The Roman Catholic "Religion"

[Cruciform]

Is Catholicism a false religion?

Post #98

 

[Cruciform]

Just a sidenote: do you happen to know any background on why the hit by Coldplay 'When I Ruled The World' uses the papal imagery in the video production?

No idea.

 

[kayaker]

I find you're comment's on Church hierarchy interesting... Daniel

KAYAKER: I really don't argue the church hierarchy for the most part. You mentioned bishops and the like. I understand there's a need...

DAN: I find you're comment's on Church hierarchy interesting, Kayaker. You do admit that the hierarchy is scriptural, I presume, implicitly, since you don't deny its existence (you "really don't argue the church hierarchy"), and you seem like the type of fellow who will only admit something thats explicit in the Scripture.

With all due respect Dan, if one needs a hierarchy… by all means. Where’s the hierarchy for a Matthew 8:20 KJV follower? Doesn’t it stand to reason all members of the hierarchy began being disciples of Jesus, then (Matthew 28:19)? Or, was becoming a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 13:15 KJV, John 8:31 KJV) somehow an unnecessary step reserved for the great unwashed (John 8:30 KJV)? What’s particularly explicit in Scripture are TWO witnesses (John 8:18 KJV) to Jesus divine Paternity (John 8:12 KJV) challenged in John 8:13 KJV and John 8:19 KJV by those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV) seeking His crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). Those TWO testimonies are found in John 8:38 KJV, and John 8:40 KJV. Who else but Jesus’ alleged one historic church would provide the explicit and succinct details of these two testimonies, Dan? Aren’t there excruciating details describing a Catholic consecrated baptism?

DAN: You also mention that they'res "a need." And thats where it get's especially interesting to me, because you do seem reluctant to submit to any bishop's today, preferring to be led personally by the Spirit and Scripture, rather than all together as He lead's and guide's us all, personally, by the Scripture, and through the teaching of our bishop's.

They’re your bishops, Dan. Not mine. If I’m going to be lead and guided through Scripture by a bishop, I expect to hear some explicit and succinct details to these two testimonies. If said bishop cannot provide said details, then that bishop doesn’t qualify as a disciple of Jesus. Consequently, the blind leads the blind (John 8:12 KV, John 8:18 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV).

DAN: And note that I mean "us" and "our" in the sense that, all of us, who believe in our Lord, are the Church that He built upon Peter, so "we" are the Church, and the Churches bishop's are ours. Whether or not, we are "in communion" with them.

Peter’s church? So, didn’t Peter’s church begin at Pentecost, Dan? Peter denied the Holy Spirit NOT standing and speaking the Pentecostal Gospel like his drunkard appearing peers (Acts 2:14 KJV). Peter’s first ‘church’ members were those who mocked the Pentecostal Gospel heard clearly in their own language (Acts 2:8 KJV, Acts 2:12 KJV). Those mockers clearly understood the Gospel like everyone else present. Those mockers just wrote off the Pentecostal Gospel as bodacious drunk talk (Acts 2:13 KJV). Do you have any ideas as to the specifics of that particular Gospel?

Immediately following the Pentecostal Gospel not spoken by Peter, Peter then denied the Holy Spirit preaching ANOTHER gospel to those mockers beginning in Acts 2:22 KJV. Furthermore, Peter addressed those mockers as “Ye men of Israel…” Peter was out of order, Dan. Among those mockers were those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV) who instigated Jesus’ crucifixion (John 8:37 KJV, Acts 2:23 KJV). What Peter evidently didn’t realize was those instigators (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV) were NOT Jacob-Israelites, Dan (John 8:33 KJV). The Catholic Church hasn’t figured this out, and it’s been on the Catholic books longer than the KJV? Something ain’t right Dan, much less than explicitly discerning who those non-Israelite instigating mockers were. Catholics are clueless, Dan. And, their cluelessness speaks volumes to their alleged status as Jesus’ one historic church.

So, those bishops you speak of are definitely yours and not mine! The question is whether or not your bishops are “in communion” with Jesus (John 14:16 KJV, John 14:17 KJV, John 14:23 KJV, John 14:26 KJV). I’m not hearing that they are, Dan. We test the spirit as John instructed:

1John 4:1, 2, 3, KJV “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3) and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​

And, you’re going to tell me Catholic bishops are not false prophets. But, Catholic bishops cannot confess the “truth” to Jesus’ divine Paternity found in these two divine testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV)? The way I read John’s verses above, Catholic bishops do not possess the Sprit of God.

KAYAKER: ...But, you didn't mention the status of the disciple, Dan. Don't you think being a disciple sorta preempts, or at least precipitates these higher church positions?...

DAN: The only disciple's that I see are the Twelve. And after Jesus commissioned them they became Apostles, along with, later on, "as of one born out of due time," Paul. And I don't recall if Paul was ever called a disciple, was he?

One of those twelve betrayed Jesus. That was all part of the plan, though. Was there something magical about the number 12? I understand there were 12 patriarchs, sons of Jacob-Israel. Wasn’t Judas’ 12th position replaced under the direction of Peter in Acts 1:15, Acts 1:17 KJV, Acts 1:26 KJV? None of the eleven were present at the 9th hour when Jesus surrendered His Spirit leaving His flesh body to die on the cross. Paul DID in fact witness the pre-death departing of Stephen’s spirit as Stephen gave up the spirit in Acts 7:59 KJV, Acts 7:60 KJV. Did Stephen not see death (Matthew 16:28 KJV ? Paul was quite unique, Dan. Paul knew who Jesus was from Genesis. Peter and the gang were a little short on this kind of OT knowledge (sheep feed, momentarily) considering Acts 4:13, 20, which probably saved their lives, unlike Stephen.

DAN: The interesting thing about the bishop's and the Apostle's is that they were equal in authority. The only Apostle who was ever seen as somehow supreme was Peter, and later on, after Peter died, his literal successor(s)

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I appreciate the inclination to perceive Peter as somehow supreme over the others. On the other hand, Peter had some aforementioned shortcomings early in his ministry. Consequently, I can only conclude Peter’s successors were likewise a few slices short of the “truth” (John 8:12 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV). Your non-inspired bishops today testify to this deficit, in fact. I’m not suggesting Peter didn’t finally come around, but I suspect that didn’t happen before Paul came onto the scene.

DAN: The Apostle John, writing after Peter departed, wrote John chapter 21, which revealed a never-before-seen exchange between our Lord and Peter, during which Jesus told Peter --and Peter only --to "Feed." Here is where John, the only living Apostle, could have set the record straight about the papacy, and he chose, guided and led by the Holy Spirit, to underscore the papacy, as coming, in no uncertain term's, from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. They're on the beach.

Why did Jesus have to instruct Peter THREE times, Dan? Peter wasn’t listening. Peter denied the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Peter denied the authoritative Pentecostal Gospel when Peter preached another gospel at that time. And, Peter denied the Holy Spirit when he addressed those mockers among who were NOT lost sheep of the house of Israel. I indeed admire John’s writing, and have already appreciated this notion to a large extent on this thread:

1) Who were Jesus’ sheep? Your Catholic bishops are again a little short on truth. Jesus was “not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24 KJV). Jesus’ “lost sheep” were descendants of Jacob-Israel, right? Jesus commissioned His disciples to “go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:6 KJV). Jesus’ commanded and Divinely targeted “lost sheep” were irrefutably the descendants of Jacob-Israel. Prior to Jesus’ ascension, Jesus instructed His disciples in like manner in John 20:20 KJV, John 20:21 KJV, John 20:22 KJV.

All of Jacob-Israel’s descendants have a legitimate patriarch EXCEPT Judah’s descendants via his Israelite Priestess daughter-in-law, Tamar (Genesis 4:26 KJV, Genesis 4:29 KJV, Genesis 4:30 KJV) contrary to numerous laws in Leviticus. Jesus being a descendant of Judah (Isaiah 65:9 KJV) and Tamar was recorded in Matthew 1:1 KJV, Matthew 1:2 KJV, Matthew 1:3 KJV and Luke 3:30 KJV, Luke 3:31 KJV, Luke 3:32 KJV. Listen carefully Dan: Jesus’ existence ‘legitimized’ the Pharzite and Zarhite (Numbers 26:20 KJV) descendants of Judah and Tamar. Jesus’ existence ‘consummated’ the relationship God sanctioned between Judah and his Israelite Priestess daughter-in-law, Tamar. But, don’t tell that to Jesus’ non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV) detractors who were descendants of Judah and his CANAANITE wife, btw (Genesis 38:2 KJV, 1Chronicles 2:3 KJV). And, your bishops are either two slices short of this truth, or, they’re holding out on you guys. Peter’s Pentecostal early church members included those non-Israelite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife, Dan. Think that might have influenced your lack of illumination some 2k years later? Now that Jesus’ ‘sheep’ are explicitly identified as descendants of Judah and Tamar, let’s take a look at sheep ‘feed’ once again as already mentioned on this thread.

2) What is sheep feed? The NT wasn’t even written Dan. Jesus told the tempter “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:3 KJV). Do you consider the OT, Books of Moses particularly, to be the inspired Word of God? Jesus was even referring to Deuteronomy 8:3 KJV when He spoke, then. Didn’t Jesus refer to His second advent being akin to what went down in Noah’s day in Matthew 24:36 KV, Matthew 24:37 KJV, Matthew 24:38 KJV, Matthew 24:39 KJV? And, you guys think Jesus was talking about literal farmers in the next verse, Matthew 24:40 KJV, not having a clue to what went down in Noah’s tent (Genesis 9:22 KJV) corroborated in Leviticus 18:8 KJV, Leviticus 20:11 KJV, Deuteronomy 22:30 KJV, Deuteronomy 27:20 KJV? Your bishops have yet to connect that verse Matthew 24:40 KJV with Matthew 13:36 KJV, Matthew 13:37 KJV, Matthew 13:38 KJV, Matthew 13:39 KJV, Matthew 13:40 KJV, Matthew 13:41 KJV, Matthew 13:42 KJV, Matthew 13:43 KJV. Like I said Dan: They’re your bishops… not mine.

DAN: We note that when Paul wrote Galatian's, he lumped together Peter with James, who was not even an Apostle but a bishop! calling them "pillar's."

Paul also knew who those non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV) mockers were that Peter addressed at Pentecost: Galatian 4:22 KJV, Genesis 25:9 KJV, Romans 9:6, 7, 8, 9, KJV. Judah’s legitimate father-in-law Shuah (Genesis 38:2 KJV) was a ‘son’ of Abraham’s wife Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), and not Abraham (John 8:39 KJV). Judah’s Canaanite son Shelah was the ‘father’ of the circumcised Shelanites (Numbers 26:20 KJV) who declared themselves authentic Jews (John 8:41 KJV, Revelation 2:9, 3:9), and declared Jesus an impostor being a descendant of Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar contrary to several laws in Leviticus.

KAYAKER...What about the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19, Dan? You've heard my scoop about disciples of Jesus. The Catholic Church has the cart before the horse:

Jesus said He is the Light of the World (John 8:12 KJV). Those seeking Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV) disputed Jesus' birth records (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV) that He was the Son of God (John 10:36 KJV). Jesus responded that He and His Father were TWO WITNESSES to Jesus' divine Paternity in John 8:18 KJV. Witnesses testify, Dan. Cutting to the chase, these two divine testimonies to Jesus' divine origin are found in John 8:38 KJV, and John 8:40 KJV.

What specifically and succinctly did Jesus SEE WITH HIS FATHER that corroborates Jesus' divine origin, Dan (John 8:38 KJV)?

What specifically and succinctly did Jesus HEAR FROM GOD, that even Abraham didn't hear, that corroborates Jesus' divine origin, Dan (John 8:40 KJV)?

These two testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV) of those two divine witnesses (John 8:18 KJV) “converted” (Matthew 13:15 KJV) Jesus’ ‘believers’ (John 8:30 KJV) into Jesus’ “disciples indeed” (John 8:31 KJV) being His believers “SHALL know the truth, and the truth SHALL make you free” (John 8:32 KJV). That is utter and irrefutable proof Jesus is THE Son of God.

Those ‘conversions’ into disciples of Jesus were going on two millennia ago, Dan! What happened, then? You can’t find a single bishop, archbishop, duke, Pope or ANYONE who can provide the explicit and succinct details of these two testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV). And, you suggest I surrender the Bible and the Holy Spirit to ANY church authority who cannot distinctly explain these two testimonies? Not a chance, Dan. That’s why I’m a Matthew 8:19 KJV, Matthew 8:20 KJV follower of Jesus.

The Catholic Church maintains alleged records of Peter and successors, speaking of endless genealogies, and you folk didn’t know Jesus’ arrival generation was prophesied in Genesis 4:24 KJV (77 fold)? Count ‘em up Dan: Luke 3:38-23, God is generation #1, Adam generation #2, Seth #3, and so forth. Jesus arrival generation was prophesied some 6 millennia ago, and Catholic wanna brag on Peter plus 2? Those early Catholic Church fathers were rambling in the dark, and they still are 2 millennia later, Dan.

Jesus said He is the Light of the World, and HE PROVED IT in John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV! So, if you do not fully comprehend those explicit testimonies, how do YOU know you’re following Jesus, Dan? Because some church authority told you? Has the Church promised you eternal life? Has the Church sanctioned some exclusive path to eternal spiritual bliss, Dan? Then do you know good and evil (Genesis 3:4 KJV, Genesis 3:5 KJV, Genesis 3:6 KJV)?

THEN ASK YOUR CHURCH AUTHORITIES to unveil the TRUTH (John 8:12 KJV, John 8:18 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV), or they’re blind drunk on serpent’s venom blowing serpent’s breath in your face. Truth serum is the only antidote, Dan.

DAN: My 1st and most pertinent response to this Kayaker, is, wheres the evidence that anybody ever thought this way, in history?

Jesus obviously thought this way, Dan: John 8:12 KJV, John 8:18 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV. How could anyone think differently (1John 4:1, 2, 3)? Surely Jesus’ words didn’t all fall on totally deaf ears. The Lord spoke to Paul’s disciple Ananias in Acts 9:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, Acts 9:18 KJV, Acts 9:19 KJV. How did Ananias come to be a disciple, Pentecost? How about those disciples who showed up before Pentecost in Acts 1:15 KJV? How did they come to be disciples? Might I suggest John 8:12 KJV, John 8:18 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV?

DAN: I can't believe that you think that you are today uniquely blessed and enlightened, to light the way that has been kept hidden all these century's, from apparently what you see as acute darkness and blindness, that has persisted ever since the second generation of the Church?

With sincere appreciation for the accolade I do not solicit, I can’t believe the Popes and bishops haven’t caught on to these numerous issues for the last few centuries. What’s hidden about what went down in Noah’s tent (Genesis 9:22 KJV)? What’s hidden about Jesus’ arrival generation being prophesied some six thousand years ago (Genesis 4:24 KJV)? What’s hidden that those seeking Jesus’ crucifixion were NOT authentic Jacob-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV)? How can a non-Catholic infidel, a blind wild hawg like me come along and toss these Scripturally documented issues on the table that disrobe the Catholic Popes and bishops in a public setting? So, it’s not that I personally deserve any accolade at all, Dan. It’s that Catholic Popes and bishops deserve a little more humility.

DAN: I've got to believe that you think the Apostle's themselve's knew the answer(s) you seek here, but that the truth was lost abruptly after they passed on?

I entirely trust Jesus’ words there were those believers (John 8:30 KJV) who “converted” (Matthew 13:15 KJV) into Jesus’ “disciples indeed” (John 8:31 KJV) receiving the “truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32 KJV). I do entirely believe those believers converted into Jesus’ disciples by explicitly and succinctly discerning the OT ‘sheep feed’ found in these two divine testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV) of these two divine witnesses (John 8:18 KJV) to Jesus divine Paternity (John 8:12 KJV). Jesus’ divine Paternity was challenged by those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV) premeditating Jesus’ crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). So, where is said “truth” today, Dan? In the Catholic Church?

DAN:On a scale of impossible, possible, plausible, probable, definite; you're idea, as far as I can understand it, is possible.

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I really don’t think said “truth” is utterly lost today, Dan. I do believe Paul understood the two testimonies considering Romans 9:6, 7. I think Stephen did (Acts 7:51, 52, 53). I think John the Baptist did (Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9). I think the rest of them did later on in their ministries. I do suggest said truth was preserved in Scripture being delivered only via the Holy Spirit (John 14:16, 17, 26, KJV).

But, Catholics particularly are clueless to quite a number of OT issues (aka ‘sheep feed’) that I’ve alluded to that’s been on their books longer than the KJV. So, what’s their hold up? Do you really think a Catholic bishop is going to say their USCCB rendering of Genesis 9:22 KJV was so far off base they were delusional to ever consider anything to the contrary, even though Scripturally corroborated in Leviticus 18:8 KJV, Leviticus 20:11 KJV, Deuteronomy 22:30 KJV, Deuteronomy 27:20 KJV? What do you think went down in Noah’s tent, Dan? That’s just the tip of the proverbial ice burg.

Thanks for your post, Daniel…

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

"Is Catholic tradition equal to the Bible?"

God's Word or the catholic's man made traditions?

www.jesus-is-lord.com/oraltrad.htm

Tell you what, Old Man...

Crucifer's a bit of a hypocrite speaking about witnesses in his post:

CRUCIFORM: Sorry, I'm not interested in wasting time on those who deliberately misrepresent---that is, lie about (Prov. 19:5)---what Catholics believe and teach. Back to Post #96.

He doesn't have a clue to the two testimonies of these two witnesses: John 8:17 KJV, John 8:18 KJV. Please consider Jesus' referral to Numbers 35:30 KJV, Deuteronomy 17:6 KJV, Deuteronomy 19:15 KJV, Matthew 18:16 KJV. Since the Catholic Church has utterly no knowledge of the explicit and succinct testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV) to Jesus' divine Paternity (John 8:12 KJV), they are a couple slices short of the "truth" (John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV). Catholics testify unto themselves they do not utterly know who Jesus is. Whatever "Catholics believe and teach" will not bring them into such divine illumination, and they've had two millennia to not figure it out. So it was written: Matthew 13:10, 11, 12, 13, Matthew 13:14 KJV, Matthew 13:15 KJV, Matthew 13:16 KJV, Matthew 13:17 KJV.

Jesus was referring to Isaiah 6:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, that will not be fulfilled until after Matthew 24:28 KV. Such illumination will occur in Matthew 24:30 KJV prior to Matthew 24:31 KJV. The cards will play out as God so sees fit.

kayaker

 

[False Prophet]

Let's go back to the Reformation!

 

[kayaker]

Let's go back to the Reformation!

AMEN!

 

[kayaker]

Let's go back to the Reformation!

With sincere respect False Prophet... I could almost argue the expression, 'reformation.' The Catholic Church consisted of Peter's early church members at Pentecost who included those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV) that instigated Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, Acts 2:23 KJV)... please consider Matthew 27:25 KJV. The notion of 'reformation' suggests the Catholic Church was ever on target in the first place. The Catholic Church was a diversion, and never established the divinity of Jesus found in John 8:12 KJV, John 8:13 KJV, John 8:18 KJV, John 8:19 KJV, John 8:30 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV fulfilling Matthew 13:15 KJV found in John 8:31 KV, John 8:32 KJV.

Peter, early in his ministry (Acts 4:13, 20), denied the Holy Spirit not speaking the Pentecostal Gospel (Acts 2:14 KJV). Peter denied the Holy Spirit when Peter addressed those non-Israelite mockers (John 8:33 KJV) who were NOT 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' (Matthew 10:6 KJV, Matthew 15:24 KJV, John 20:21 KJV). And, Peter denied the Pentecostal Gospel preaching ANOTHER Gospel beginning in Acts 2:22 KJV.

So, with all due respect... the notion of 'reformation' assumes Peter's Catholic Church was ever on task in the first place: Matthew 28:19. Where are the Catholic Disciples of Jesus who can succinctly and explicitly unveil these two testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV) utterly affirming Jesus' divine Paternity? Catholics proclaim to be Jesus' one historic Church; but, fall silent on this matter of paramount importance? Peter, with all due respect, didn't know a sheep from shinola early in his ministry (Acts 2:22 KJV). And, his alleged one historic Catholic Church still hasn't even figured out those who instigated Jesus crucifixion weren't even authentic Israelite JEWS! Any guess they infiltrated Peter's one historic Church just like they infiltrated the true Israelite Jewish synagogues in Jesus' day?

No wonder Catholics are wandering in the dark: John 8:12 KJV.

kayaker