The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin

[Robert Pate]

Are you honestly proposing that both Calvin and AMR are created spiritual beings that at some time in time decided to follow Lucifer and fell? Were/are they incarnated as human, or are/were they still spiritual beings that only appear to be human form?

Neither you, John Calvin or AMR have the truth.

You are all spiritually blind. You don't believe the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

If you were "In Christ" you would embrace his Gospel.

 

[beloved57]

Neither you, John Calvin or AMR have the truth.

You are all spiritually blind. You don't believe the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

If you were "In Christ" you would embrace his Gospel.

You don't believe those scriptures, you deny them !

 

[Dialogos]

And the point being????

 

[Brother Ducky]

Neither you, John Calvin or AMR have the truth.

You are all spiritually blind. You don't believe the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

If you were "In Christ" you would embrace his Gospel.

Of course we believe and embrace the Gospel. And you did not answer the question. And, by the way, I did not see anything in the original post that anything to do with Calvin. Did you cut and paste the wrong stuff?

 

[Robert Pate]

Of course we believe and embrace the Gospel. And you did not answer the question. And, by the way, I did not see anything in the original post that anything to do with Calvin. Did you cut and paste the wrong stuff?

Here is a question for you.

If God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

 

[beloved57]

Here is a question for you.

If God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

When did you start believing that verse ?

 

[Robert Pate]

When did you start believing that verse ?

Maybe you would like to answer the question?

 

[beloved57]

Maybe you would like to answer the question?

When did you start believing that verse ?

 

[Brother Ducky]

Here is a question for you.

If God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

Well, you still have not answered my question. And since it goes to what you think, it should be a simple one to answer. Are Calvin and AMR really demons as you indicated?

But to your question...

Simple. The term "world" here does not mean every single person. It means Jews and Gentiles. All kinds of people, not all people. To say it means all people is to either become a Universalist, or leads to the absolutely idiotic doctrine that God re-imputes sin to those he is reconciled to.

And since the fall we have had sin effect all areas of our being, we are unable to choose God. Predestination is the method God chose to use to save, for his glory alone.

 

[musterion]

Simple. The term "world" here does not mean every single person. It means Jews and Gentiles. All kinds of people, not all people.

Where exactly does the Bible limit 'world' according to your definition of 'world'?

To say it means all people is to either become a Universalist,

No it doesn't. God still expects and requires faith. That is where universalists err. No one can be saved today without believing the Gospel of the grace of God, and do so before they die.

or leads to the absolutely idiotic doctrine that God re-imputes sin to those he is reconciled to.

No it doesn't. No one here believes 'reconciled' means 'declared righteous' or 'saved.' That's a straw man. God still expects and requires faith expressed in believing the Gospel of the grace of God. That's how the benefits of that reconciliation can be "unto all" but only showered "upon all them that believe" (Rom 3:21, 22).

You, on the other hand, believe you were reconciled not through faith but by virtue of your presumed election before you ever believed...before you even existed. Thus does your doctrine contradict Paul. The different gospel you preach is why you are accursed.

 

[beloved57]

musterion:

No it doesn't. No one here believes 'reconciled' means 'declared righteous or saved !

I believe it, because the reconciled have no sin charged to them 2 Cor 5:19 so they are Justified and declared righteous before God before they believe and while enemies Rom 5:10 !

 

[Brother Ducky]

Where exactly does the Bible limit 'world' according to your definition of 'world'?

Of course the Bible does not limit the definition. I believe that "world" like many terms can be used in different ways in different contexts. And usually the context determines the intended meaning. I think the context here determines the meaning to be part of humanity, but including Jews and Gentiles. Since you took the time to respond, I assume you hold that the term here refers to all people. Is that correct? If so, do you also hold that the term always refers to all people?

No it doesn't. God still expects and requires faith. That is where universalists err. No one can be saved today without believing the Gospel of the grace of God, and do so before they die.

I agree. We would, of course, disagree as to whom can believe.

No it doesn't. No one here believes 'reconciled' means 'declared righteous' or 'saved.' That's a straw man. God still expects and requires faith expressed in believing the Gospel of the grace of God. That's how the benefits of that reconciliation can be "unto all" but only showered "upon all them that believe" (Rom 3:21, 22).

Not sure that you can speak for every one here as to what they believe. But I agree that "reconciled" does not mean "saved." However, I would argue that reconciliation is an integral part of salvation. And one that can not be attributed to the unsaved. Not sure of what you mean by the benefits of reconciliation can be for all, but showed on only some. Sounds something like all are reconciled but only some are really reconciled. Or perhaps, all can be reconciled if...

You, on the other hand, believe you were reconciled not through faith but by virtue of your presumed election before you ever believed...before you even existed. Thus does your doctrine contradict Paul. The different gospel you preach is why you are accursed.

No, I would not argue that I was reconciled on the basis of my election, but on the basis of my salvation. I would agree that the fact that I am saved is certainly related to election. If not elect, then not saved and not reconciled, ever.

 

[musterion]

No, I would not argue that I was reconciled on the basis of my election, but on the basis of my salvation. I would agree that the fact that I am saved is certainly related to election. If not elect, then not saved and not reconciled, ever.

According to TULIP, if elected, one is as good as justified and saved in eternity passed by the sovereign decree of God. That person's eventually being enabled to hear, understand and believe the gospel is only the inevitable outworking of that prior reconciliation and justification, which was unbreakably ordained from eternity past, but is not really the means by which it is accomplished. That's already been done.

Proof: there is zero chance that someone who has been elected according to Calvinism can end up in unbelief and in the lake of fire.

 

[Robert Pate]

Well, you still have not answered my question. And since it goes to what you think, it should be a simple one to answer. Are Calvin and AMR really demons as you indicated?

But to your question...

Simple. The term "world" here does not mean every single person. It means Jews and Gentiles. All kinds of people, not all people. To say it means all people is to either become a Universalist, or leads to the absolutely idiotic doctrine that God re-imputes sin to those he is reconciled to.

And since the fall we have had sin effect all areas of our being, we are unable to choose God. Predestination is the method God chose to use to save, for his glory alone.

There are only two kinds of people in the world, Jews and Gentiles.

The word "World" means all of humanity. Such as, "God so loves all of humanity that he gave his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

Why would God not love all of humanity?

It is not in God's nature or character to love just some and not all. He said that he came into the world to save sinners, which we are all one of.

To say that God makes it impossible for all to believe on his Son Jesus Christ is to make God unjust. Why would God do that?

He gives his only begotten Son for the sins of the world and then hides it from some? Why would he do such a terrible thing as that?

 

[Brother Ducky]

According to TULIP, if elected, one is as good as justified and saved in eternity passed by the sovereign decree of God. That person's eventually being enabled to hear, understand and believe the gospel is only the inevitable outworking of that prior reconciliation and justification, which was unbreakably ordained from eternity past, but is not really the means by which it is accomplished. That's already been done.

Proof: there is zero chance that someone who has been elected according to Calvinism can end up in unbelief and in the lake of fire.

I would agree with your proof statement, but not that it proves you point. I think you are arguing for eternal reconciliation and justification here, but that is not what I hold to be true. I was born as a child of wrath and at some time in time [October 31, 1976] God saved me. The means used were the means used, and not the fact of election.

 

[musterion]

I would agree with your proof statement, but not that it proves you point. I think you are arguing for eternal reconciliation and justification here, but that is not what I hold to be true. I was born as a child of wrath and at some time in time [October 31, 1976] God saved me. The means used were the means used, and not the fact of election.

Nonsense. If Calvinism is true and someone is elect from eternity past, they were and are already safe in the hand of God forever. Faith in Christ is merely a technical detail that will be worked out eventually but doesn't actually accomplish what was already settled in Heaven before you were ever born. You were never a child of wrath because you, as an elected one, were never in any danger of wrath.

 

[Brother Ducky]

To say that God makes it impossible for all to believe on his Son Jesus Christ is to make God unjust.

You still have not answered my question.

How would this make God unjust?

 

[Robert Pate]

You still have not answered my question.

How would this make God unjust?

The fact that you do not see how it would make God unjust to save some and not all, means that you have no sense of justice.

Why would God not save all?

You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust. Why do you want to believe that about God?

 

[Brother Ducky]

The fact that you do not see how it would make God unjust to save some and not all, means that you have no sense of justice.

Why would God not save all?

You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust. Why do you want to believe that about God?

Any particular reason you choose to rant rather than answer a simple question?

I can see how one might say that God was not fair if he chose to save some and not all. But not unjust.

So, again...how would this make God unjust?

 

[beloved57]

The fact that you do not see how it would make God unjust to save some and not all, means that you have no sense of justice.

Why would God not save all?

You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust. Why do you want to believe that about God?

You make God Unjust in punishing persons for sins that were punished in Christ already!