The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin

[Lon]

:think:
King David was adulterous 2 Sam. 11:1-3
Got another's wife pregnant 2 Samuel 11:4-5
Plotted and tried to cover it up 2 Samuel 11:6-13
Had Uriah murdered, as well as many others 2 Samuel 11:14-26
And took another man's wife as his own 2 Samuel 11:27

PERSECUTIONS AT CALVIN'S GENEVA

Spoiler

The minutes book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-1549 (translated by Stefan Zewig, Eramus: The Right to Heresy):

Compiled by Jack Moorman.

The apostle John wrote: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see whether they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" 1 John 4:1.

Spoiler

1. During the ravages of the pestilence in 1545 more than twenty men and women were burnt alive for witchcraft.

2. From 1542 to 1546 fifty eight judgments of death and twenty six decrees of banishment were passed.

3. During the years 1558 and 1559 the cases of various punishments for all sorts of offences amounted to four hundred and fourteen.

4. One burgher smiled while attending baptism: three days in prison.

5. Another, tired out on a hot summer day, went to sleep during a sermon: was sentenced to prison.

6. Some workmen ate pastry at breakfast: three days on bread and water.

7. Two burghers played skittles: prison.

8. Two others diced for a quarter bottle of wine: prison.

9. A blind fiddler played and damced: expelled from the city.

10. Another praised Castellio's translation of the Bible: expelled from Geneva.

11. A girl was caught skating, a widow threw herself on the grave of her husband, a burgher offered his neighbor a pinch of snuff during divine service: they were summoned before the Consistory, exhorted and ordered to do penance.

12. Some cheerful fellows at Epiphany stuck a bean into the cake: four and twenty hours on bread and water.

13. A couple of peasants talked about business matters on coming out of church: prison.

14. A man played cards: he was pilloried with the pack hung around his neck.

15. Another sang riotlously in the street; was told 'they could go and sing elsewhere,' this meaning he was banished from the city.

16. Two bargees had a brawl: executed.

The death penalty against heresy, idolatry and blasphemy and barbarous customs of torture were retained. Attendance at public worship was commanded on penalty of three sols. Watchmen were appointed to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visted every house to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visited every house once a year to examine the faith and morals of the family. Every unseemly word and act on the streets was reported and the offenders were cited before the Consistory to be either censured and warned, or to be handed over to the Council for severer punishment.

:up: Not only Calvin (see AMR's excellent response with sources above), but certainly David who's guilt is unquestionable, unlike John Calvin (have you already thrown out Samuel, Psalms, Chronicles and Kings? :think: Let's do that too Robert, right in the trash along with James and Acts for you...)

OTOH :think:
Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
1 Samuel 13:14
1 Kings 14:8

Wow, Robert Pate vs God :think: : 1 Samuel 16:7

Learn an important lesson today, Robert, you are thinking like a Pharisee. Listen to Jesus Christ my Lord God and Savior Luke 18:9-14

 

[beloved57]

It doesnt matter what John Calvin did or did not do, Tulip is still the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, and those who dont embrace so, are in unbelief, its as simple as that !

 

[Truster]

So you think that God is responsible for the works of the devil?

Did not the Eternal Almighty, who has foreknowledge, create Satan? In foreknowledge, He could have not created Satan, but He did create him. Was the Almighty taken by ''surprise'' when Satan fell? or was it all part of a plan? Was the Eternal Almighty taken by surprise when sin entered into the world? Or was it all part of a plan?

For the Almighty to be taken in surprise it would mean His foreknowledge failed...perish the thought.

Did the Eternal Almighty become subject to Satan? Or is Satan subject to the Almighty? There is a hint in the title, ALMIGHTY!

 

[musterion]

It was the sixteenth century.

That is no excuse.

According to all the letters in the NT, there is no hint that the apostles nor the believers to whom they wrote would have done to those who disagree what Calvinists did, and what Calvin himself approved. What we see in Geneva is a Catholic cult that wickedly claimed the same divine authority claimed by mother Rome -- authority to not merely expel (which is biblical if done in the right way and with the right motive) but literally punish and even murder those who disagreed.

God gave members of the Body of Christ NO SUCH AUTHORITY.

But you keep on defending the cult. The psychological gymnastics are fascinating to watch. The judge from Ireland gives you a 9.7 for effort.

 

[Totton Linnet]

That is no excuse.

According to all the letters in the NT, there is no hint that the apostles nor the believers to whom they wrote would have done to those who disagree what Calvinists did, and what Calvin himself approved. What we see in Geneva is a Catholic cult that wickedly claimed the same divine authority claimed by mother Rome -- authority to not merely expel (which is biblical if done in the right way and with the right motive) but literally punish and even murder those who disagreed.

God gave members of the Body of Christ NO SUCH AUTHORITY.

But you keep on defending the cult. The psychological gymnastics are fascinating to watch. The judge from Ireland gives you a 9.7 for effort.

Fallacy...If the political leader is born again still he must implement the law as it stands.

You cain't impose a 21st century mindset upon a 16th century man.

The wrong is that the church was ever welded to the state....but they didn't know that yet. And incidently Luther ruthlessly surpressed the Peasant's revolt which was a response among the peasants to his own doctrine.

...but Luther gets away with it.

 

[musterion]

Many on you good American folks bleeve in the death penalty, an argument I would not enter into.

Don't try to rabbit trail this thread.

God established the concept of a death penalty because He is righteous and holy and likes order. All societies throughout history had some form of it. Today, many have abandoned it. Christians either agree with having it or they do not, but establishing and carrying it out is society's doing. God nowhere in the Bible indicates He does not like the idea of a death penalty.

The point of this thread is, God NEVER established for the Body of Christ any kind of punitive unto death authority for "heretics" during this dispensation of grace. During the Kingdom, He will take care of all such Himself, immediately, summarily and permanently. But that Day is not yet.

 

[bybee]

Fallacy...If the political leader is born again still he must implement the law as it stands.

You cain't impose a 21st century mindset upon a 16th century man.

The wrong is that the church was ever welded to the state....but they didn't know that yet. And incidently Luther ruthlessly surpressed the Peasant's revolt which was a response among the peasants to his own doctrine.

...but Luther gets away with it.

I do not forget it! Yet, they were both leaders of immense intellect and wisdom.
My Church has to live with Henry VIII! So I don't like to criticize!:shocked:

 

[chrysostom]

I do not forget it! Yet, they were both leaders of immense intellect and wisdom.
My Church has to live with Henry VIII! So I don't like to criticize!:shocked:

do you have a choice?

 

[bybee]

do you have a choice?

Indeed I do!

 

[Lon]

The point of this thread is, God NEVER established for the Body of Christ any kind of punitive unto death authority for "heretics" during this dispensation of grace. During the Kingdom, He will take care of all such Himself, immediately, summarily and permanently. But that Day is not yet.

I agree on this point. After Saul was confronted by Jesus, he wrote how heretics should be shunned but did not continue persecuting them to death. It seems such would set example for posterity. Whatever Calvin's reason, I believe it was the wrong thing to do.

These failing men do not stop me from reading the Psalms, or Paul's writings, or Calvin's thoughts (not that the latter is scripture, and I don't read him that way). Saul and Calvin likely had good intent, in zeal. There are men today, that I do judge by their actions, and so don't read their works as I think they after $$$. It may be, however, that they'd write something I might scripturally agree with. I don't believe in guilt by association in that, but perhaps I understand the problem of "Calvinist" as a moniker with some. If I was a "TVevangelitist" (fill-in the TV ev blank), I can see the problem there too, but perhaps many years after they are dead it wouldn't matter as much, especially if I was against the problematic. I tend to say "Reformed" though in every sense it means Calvinist, I'm just not following a man but the One Who died.

You can't impose a 21st century mindset upon a 16th century man.

The wrong is that the church was ever welded to the state....but they didn't know that yet. And incidently Luther ruthlessly surpressed the Peasant's revolt which was a response among the peasants to his own doctrine.

...but Luther gets away with it.

David was obviously sinning. These others were thinking they were doing the right thing, and I think the fact that the church and state was synonymous makes for a lot of this. They already had to judge crimes so were already implementing the laws, when heresy turned the corner, it probably was an easier thing to have done (I'd hate to be a judge or a juror in charge of a guilty verdict that would send one to death).

My Church has to live with Henry VIII! So I don't like to criticize!:shocked:

:shocked:

 

[dialm]

Don't try to rabbit trail this thread.

God established the concept of a death penalty because He is righteous and holy and likes order. All societies throughout history had some form of it. Today, many have abandoned it. Christians either agree with having it or they do not, but establishing and carrying it out is society's doing. God nowhere in the Bible indicates He does not like the idea of a death penalty.

The point of this thread is, God NEVER established for the Body of Christ any kind of punitive unto death authority for "heretics" during this dispensation of grace. During the Kingdom, He will take care of all such Himself, immediately, summarily and permanently. But that Day is not yet.

That declaration is to big for you. Better let that go.

 

[dialm]

You see most dictators are short guys. Example

The Duece
Adolf
Stalin
Etc (that is short for more)

These guys thought they could dictate to another man's wife. Boy did they ever come up short.

Bleeding heart can't dictate to the Church. He isn't the Lord. He isn't even an apostle. Why probably he can't produce any proof to back up the big things he says. Just like the little dictators of old. Mouthing their way through life. But in the end it always turns out the same.

Short on substance.

 

[Crucible]

You see most dictators are short guys. Example

The Duece
Adolf
Stalin
Etc (that is short for more)

These guys thought they could dictate to another man's wife. Boy did they ever come up short.

Bleeding heart can't dictate to the Church. He isn't the Lord. He isn't even an apostle. Why probably he can't produce any proof to back up the big things he says. Just like the little dictators of old. Mouthing their way through life. But in the end it always turns out the same.

Short on substance.

It would be in Luther and Calvin's own opinion that the Holocaust was punishment for the Jews having rejected Christ.

It's an historical truth. What do you make of it?

The '6 million' is a falsehood to support a heretical prophesy in Judaism.

That is also very true- there were probably only 2 million who were persecuted.

Put that in your coffee, and be prepared to be called a 'holocaust denier' even though you are not

 

[dialm]

It would be in Luther and Calvin's own opinion that the Holocaust was punishment for the Jews having rejected Christ.

It's an historical truth. What do you make of it?

The '6 million' is a falsehood to support a heretical prophesy in Judaism.

That is also very true- there were probably only 2 million who were persecuted.

Put that in your coffee, and be prepared to be called a 'holocaust denier' even though you are not

Dont know about all that but a I do know that Calvin had to leave France. He was running from the Pope who wanted to execute him. It seems that here in this thread we got a closet Pope want-a-be that would love to execute if he only was big enough.

Come on out of the closet and show us robes and lip stick choir boy.

 

[dialm]

Don't try to rabbit trail this thread.

God established the concept of a death penalty because He is righteous and holy and likes order. All societies throughout history had some form of it. Today, many have abandoned it. Christians either agree with having it or they do not, but establishing and carrying it out is society's doing. God nowhere in the Bible indicates He does not like the idea of a death penalty.

The point of this thread is, God NEVER established for the Body of Christ any kind of punitive unto death authority for "heretics" during this dispensation of grace. During the Kingdom, He will take care of all such Himself, immediately, summarily and permanently. But that Day is not yet.

Come on out. You like quoting chrysostom as though you would stand right up to those mean old catholics back in the day. I think you would have been to scared for that.

But you do talk big

 

[dialm]

PERSECUTIONS AT CALVIN'S GENEVA

The minutes book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-1549 (translated by Stefan Zewig, Eramus: The Right to Heresy):

Compiled by Jack Moorman.

The apostle John wrote: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see whether they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" 1 John 4:1.

1. During the ravages of the pestilence in 1545 more than twenty men and women were burnt alive for witchcraft.

2. From 1542 to 1546 fifty eight judgments of death and twenty six decrees of banishment were passed.

3. During the years 1558 and 1559 the cases of various punishments for all sorts of offences amounted to four hundred and fourteen.

4. One burgher smiled while attending baptism: three days in prison.

5. Another, tired out on a hot summer day, went to sleep during a sermon: was sentenced to prison.

6. Some workmen ate pastry at breakfast: three days on bread and water.

7. Two burghers played skittles: prison.

8. Two others diced for a quarter bottle of wine: prison.

9. A blind fiddler played and damced: expelled from the city.

10. Another praised Castellio's translation of the Bible: expelled from Geneva.

11. A girl was caught skating, a widow threw herself on the grave of her husband, a burgher offered his neighbor a pinch of snuff during divine service: they were summoned before the Consistory, exhorted and ordered to do penance.

12. Some cheerful fellows at Epiphany stuck a bean into the cake: four and twenty hours on bread and water.

13. A couple of peasants talked about business matters on coming out of church: prison.

14. A man played cards: he was pilloried with the pack hung around his neck.

15. Another sang riotlously in the street; was told 'they could go and sing elsewhere,' this meaning he was banished from the city.

16. Two bargees had a brawl: executed.

The death penalty against heresy, idolatry and blasphemy and barbarous customs of torture were retained. Attendance at public worship was commanded on penalty of three sols. Watchmen were appointed to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visted every house to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visited every house once a year to examine the faith and morals of the family. Every unseemly word and act on the streets was reported and the offenders were cited before the Consistory to be either censured and warned, or to be handed over to the Council for severer punishment.

Most apostates don't want to be punished for their deeds. Especially punishment for heresy. But that is to bad. The punishment is going to be meeted out. No prob

 

[Robert Pate]

Most apostates don't want to be punished for their deeds. Especially punishment for heresy. But that is to bad. The punishment is going to be meeted out. No prob

No one should be punished for what they believe.

I am thankful that our fore-fathers saw the need for freedom of religion.

 

[dialm]

What a hypocrit.

 

[Robert Pate]

What a hypocrit.

Reprobates and others like yourself need correction, but not punishment.

Jude says to rebuke them sharply, Jude 1:4-16.

 

[Crucible]

Dont know about all that but a I do know that Calvin had to leave France.

What else is new- the papacy is more known historically as a murderer than a vicar of Christ.
They painted Peter's seat red.