Aaron the Tall
Member
I am personally not a full-preterist. Although I see the "coming" of Matthew 24 as fulfilled, I recognize a future coming (I Cor 15).
The Preterists and Matthew 24:34
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I am personally not a full-preterist. Although I see the "coming" of Matthew 24 as fulfilled, I recognize a future coming (I Cor 15).
Sonnet
New member
But, nevertheless, the 'great distress' has already occurred? So, any future tribulation will not be as great?
Many early church fathers interpreted the events of 70AD as the fulfillment of Matt 24:34
What cover-up?
Not many people deny that the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD, and that not one stone was left standing upon another in the temple.
The kingdom of Heaven is not of this world.
Right now, Christ Jesus reigns with the Saints in the kingdom. None of the Saints who are reigning with Christ Jesus right now bleed.
However, when the thousand years is over, satan will be released for a little while, but then will be devoured by fire, then thrown into the lake of fire, then the Great Judgment, then death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and then unbelievers not in the book of life are thrown into the fire.
Sonnet
New member
The great distress of 70AD eclipses the holocaust or Stalin's slaughter of millions of his own people?
Sonnet
New member
Mat. 24:
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
That did not occur in 70AD.
Is distress and/or tribulation bases solely on the number of people killed?
Josphus tells of Jewish mothers boiling their children and eating the flesh.
Which of the two following examples is a "greater distress":
1) 10 men shot and killed by a firing squad
2) 1 mother boiling her 2 year old little girl and eating the flesh
Sonnet
New member
What of the gassing of millions of Jews? The destruction of Jerusalem, including the temple, in 70AD was a distressing event but there's been plenty worse.
How about Noah's flood?
Hiroshima?
I do concede, though, that the plain reading of Mat. 24:34 is as you interpret it. But Jesus did not return.
It's grist for the atheist's mill.
Yes it did.
Let's look at the following verse:
(Isaiah 19:1) A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
In the above verse did the Lord literally ride on a literal cloud into Egypt?
Did the Lord literally come to Egypt?
Answer: No
We know from history, that the fulfillment of Isaiah 19:1 was when the Assyrian army invaded Egypt.
Your subjective opinion is that there have been plenty worse.
Why didn't you answer by question about which of the two examples was a greater distress?
The grist for the atheist's mill is when Christians come up with all kinds of ridiculous excuses of why Matt 24:34 doesn't mean what it says.
Do you believe that the Roman army came in 66AD, laid siege on the city for 3.5 years, then completely destroyed the city not leaving one stone left standing upon the other of the temple?
Sonnet
New member
If your assessment is correct - then we may forgive unbelievers for their lack of faith. If words and phrases are that symbolic then the true meaning of scripture is obfuscated.
However, in Isaiah 19 there is are clarification regarding verse 1. Just keep reading v.2ff.
If Mat 24:30 is not to be taken literally then scripture is eviscerated. Why should we believe much of any of it?
Sonnet
New member
I think the onus rests with you to explain why 70AD is without parallel in terms of distress.
Ask anyone what historical event should be considered the worst.
Indeed.
Sonnet
New member
Yes.
Huh?
Where is Isaiah 19 is there clarification of "he Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt." ?
Is "rides on a swift cloud" symbolic?
Again, why is it ok to take Isaiah 19:1 symbolically, but not Matt 24:30?
"coming in the clouds" is old testament terminology that describes God's wrath and judgment on cities and nations.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Jews needed constant assurance about their survival so why should it surprise anyone one that the Lord Jesus would assure them of their survival?
After all, it is impossible that this translation could be correct:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).
The generation living in the first century did not see a world-wide judgment so the word "generation" is clearly not the correct translation.
On the other hand, the word "family" (the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) fits perfectly.
That's good.
Then how do you not see what happened from 66AD-70AD as the fulfillment of Matt 24:34?
You mentioned the early church earlier. Let's look at what an early church father said regarding 70AD
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men." - Eusebius (A.D. 325), Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Ch. 5
In the above Eusebius tells us that all the holy men had left Jerusalem before the Romans came and destroyed the city.
The holy men leaving the city before the siege shows they listened to the warning of Christ Jesus:
(Matt 24:16) then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
It wasn't a world-wide judgement.
If it was a world-wide judgement, then why did Jesus tell only those in Judaea to flee to the hills when they saw Jerusalem surrounded?
(Luke 21:20-21) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
Does the above sound like a world-wide judgement?
Besides telling those in the city to flee to the mountains, Jesus told those in the country not to enter the city.
There is nothing "world-wide" in the passage, the passage is specific to Jerusalem and Judaea.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
With God all things are possible. But why would you question what the Lord promised to David? Do you think that He would promise something and then not fulfill it, especially since He said that His words would be fulfilled.
Do you question the Lord Jesus' words here where He states that when He returns to the earth that He will sit upon His throne?:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).