The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[Jerry Shugart]

Firstly, you are suggesting that the fulfillment of the ages that Paul refers to in I Cor 10 is the same thing that Paul talks about in I Thess 4.

Yes, Paul was told that the coming of the Lord to catch up the saints was "imminent" so he assumed that they were living during the time when the fulfillment of the ages was happening.

In my opinion, the only thing that links those verses is a theological framework, not the texts themselves. They are two different things, as I see them. I imagine Paul did expect to be raptured up to meet Christ in the air - but Paul's statement in I Cor 10 is a factual statement, not a supposition - as is the statement in Hebrews about Jesus coming at the coming at the end of the ages.

Since Paul thought that he would experience the rapture then it would be natural for him to refer to the time in which he was living in the following way:

"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor.10:11).​

I'm sure you are aware of instances where "world" does not refer to every corner of the planet. For instance, Colossians 1:6 says the gospel was bearing fruit "all over the world". (almost sounds like a worldwide harvest of fruit). The same Greek word is used here as in Matthew 13.

Furthermore, my paradigm does not suggest the harvest takes place solely in Israel. While most of the early converts to Christianity were Jewish - the greatest growth of the Kingdom in the years ahead was outside Israel.

After the great tribulation is over we see the following events which will happen:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:25-27).​

In the same discourse the Lord Jesus used the same word at another place:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Mt.24:14).​

Then later in the same discourse the Lord made it plain that He was referring to the whole world:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory...take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:27,34-35).​

Is this your response to my questioning who will be removed from the kingdom in the Matthew 13 harvest? Are you suggesting this "kingdom" is simply God's general authority over the earth? And not the Kingdom of salvation, which can only be entered by being born again?

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil" (Mt.13:41).​

It is certain that these who will be weeded out of this kingdom will not be born of God so the kingdom spoken of by the Lord at John 3:5 is not the kingdom spoken of at Matthew 13:41.

Or do you want to argue that those who will cause sin and will do evil will be in the kingdom mentioned by the Lord at John 3:5?

If so, what exactly is this parable stating? That the bad plants will be removed from God's general rule of the planet, ie: destroyed? And then the good plants are brought into God's general rule of the planet from where????

The meaning of the parable is saying that at the end of the age the unbelievers from all over the world will be taken out of the world and only the believers will be left. Then the only ones who will be left are those who are born again and the will all enter the earthly kingdom where the Lord will rule from the throne of David.

That certainly has not happened yet so the events of which the Lord Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 remain in the future.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where did all the preterists go?

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Since Paul thought that he would experience the rapture then it would be natural for him to refer to the time in which he was living in the following way:

"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor.10:11).​

I simply don't agree with you there - especially so with Hebrews 9:26 - which says Christ came at the end of the age. I Cor 10 doesn't have any rapture in mind - and certainly Hebrews doesn't. It specifically links the end of the age with Christ's first coming. Again I point to the harvest of Matthew 21 harvest, where Jesus' first coming was to collect for the harvest.

After the great tribulation is over we see the following events which will happen:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:25-27).​

Some of these signs are literal, some are figurative - unless you think the stars will literally fall from the sky (Matt 24:29)

In the same discourse the Lord Jesus used the same word at another place:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Mt.24:14).​

Then later in the same discourse the Lord made it plain that He was referring to the whole world:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory...take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:27,34-35).​

I can find a pile of verses where the word for "earth" in Luke is used to describe a limited region - a country - even Israel (Matt 2:20).

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil" (Mt.13:41).​

It is certain that these who will be weeded out of this kingdom will not be born of God so the kingdom spoken of by the Lord at John 3:5 is not the kingdom spoken of at Matthew 13:41.

Or do you want to argue that those who will cause sin and will do evil will be in the kingdom mentioned by the Lord at John 3:5?

Christ was in the process of reorganizing the Kingdom. As Matt 21:43 says - the Kingdom of God was taken from the rebellious Jews. There were evildoers in this Kingdom - and this wasn't God's general rule over the earth type of "kingdom".

The meaning of the parable is saying that at the end of the age the unbelievers from all over the world will be taken out of the world and only the believers will be left. Then the only ones who will be left are those who are born again and the will all enter the earthly kingdom where the Lord will rule from the throne of David.

That certainly has not happened yet so the events of which the Lord Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 remain in the future.

Your interpretation of the parable has not happened yet - no. I don't share that interpretation. For clarification, when will the end of the age be? Is it the rapture - since you suggest Paul linked the end of the age to the rapture?

Or is the end of the age 7 years after the rapture?

If your interpretation of Matthew 13 is correct, does that mean there will be a subsequent harvest at the end of the millenium when the angels have to take out of the kingdom a second crop of wicked men that spring up during that time?

 

[Aaron the Tall]

On another note - more closely related to the OP - I'm not sure if you are suggesting this, but I've heard some say that Jesus couldn't have meant these things would take place within a generation because he also said he didn't know the day or the hour.

Well, if I want to be ultra literal, I can point out that Jesus said he didn't know the day or the hour. He didn't say he didn't know the year.

But in reality, if Jesus knew that these things were generally coming to a head in the near future - that doesn't mean he is lying if he says he doesn't know the day or the hour.

He was giving this advice to real people standing in front of him. He was warning them that it would be soon, but he wouldn't give them an exact time of the day.

This is the exact same message as in the parable of the the two servants and the ten virgins. The servants knew their master would be coming back within their lifetime (obviously) - but this didn't stop one of the servants from being ill prepared, because the servant didn't know the exact hour of his master's return. The virgins had much more precise knowledge of when the bridegroom would come - down to the exact day - yet that didn't stop some of them from being unprepared when the bridegroom came a few hours later than they expected.

It doesn't matter if Jesus said it would all happen within 30 years or 3000 years - people still wouldn't properly prepare - which is precisely the point behind Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24. He is telling them to be prepared.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I simply don't agree with you there - especially so with Hebrews 9:26 - which says Christ came at the end of the age.

Here Peter spoke of what it would take for the Lord Jesus to return to the earth:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

In fact, shortly before His Olivet discourse the Lord Jesus made it plain that the Jews would not see Him again until they accepted Him, saying:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).​

Since it is obvious that the nation of Israel did not repent then that nation has not seen the Lord Jesus since He walked among them. Therefore, common sense dictates these words of the Lord have not yet come to pass:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Likewise, this prophecy remains in the future:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).​

Some of these signs are literal, some are figurative - unless you think the stars will literally fall from the sky (Matt 24:29).

Of course these verses are referring to things which will actually be seen in the sky or else why would the Lord describe men's reactions to what they see in the sky?:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:25-27).​

Nothing like that happened in the first century or anytime since. Therefore, the Lord Jesus' return to earth has not yet happened.

I can find a pile of verses where the word for "earth" in Luke is used to describe a limited region - a country - even Israel (Matt 2:20).

Yes, but in every instance the context demonstrates that a limited region is in view. But there is nothing in the context at Luke 21 which even hints that a limited region is being spoken about. And every single translation of that verse that I can find does not reveal of a limited region.

In fact, the context demonstrates just the opposite:

"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk. 21: 25-27).​

Gary DeMar, a well known preterist, gives a meaning for the word oikoumene here:

"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).​

In the same discourse the Lord Jesus used the same word at another place:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Mt.24:14).​

If we are to remain consistent then if oikoumene means the inhabited earth (or the Roman Empire) at Matthew 24:14 then it should mean the same thing at Luke 21:26.

Therefore, the context demonstrates that the following is the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

Since the generation then living never saw a world wide harvest then it is certain the the translation using the word "generation" is faulty.

No world wide judgment has happened in first century or since so that event remains in the future.

Christ was in the process of reorganizing the Kingdom. As Matt 21:43 says - the Kingdom of God was taken from the rebellious Jews. There were evildoers in this Kingdom - and this wasn't God's general rule over the earth type of "kingdom".

The kingdom He spoke is not the one He referred to at John 3:5 or else we must believe that the Lord was wrong when He said that a man must be born again in order to enter.

For clarification, when will the end of the age be?

The age which follows is the kingdom age. So the end of the age will be when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth and begins to sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

When on your timeline did the Lord Jesus return to earth and then sit upon His throne?

 

[tetelestai]

Well, if I want to be ultra literal, I can point out that Jesus said he didn't know the day or the hour. He didn't say he didn't know the year.

When Jesus said He didn't know the day or hour, it was a theological reference to the Feast of Trumpets.

Unlike the other feasts, the Feast of Trumpets was not marked by a day, date, time, etc.

It was marked when two witnesses reported to the Sanhedrin that they spotted the new moon.

Since Moses, no Israelite ever knew the day or hour when the Feast of Trumpets would begin.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the 4 spring feasts in 30AD.

The 3 fall feasts were fulfilled in 70AD beginning with the Feast of Trumpets, which no one knew the day or hour it would happen until the two witnesses saw the new moon.

(Rev 11:3) And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Roman siege of Jerusalem began in 66AD and ended in 70AD (1,260 days)

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Here Peter spoke of what it would take for the Lord Jesus to return to the earth:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

In fact, shortly before His Olivet discourse the Lord Jesus made it plain that the Jews would not see Him again until they accepted Him, saying:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).​

Since it is obvious that the nation of Israel did not repent then that nation has not seen the Lord Jesus since He walked among them. Therefore, common sense dictates these words of the Lord have not yet come to pass:

Again, you are equating the end of the age to Christ's second coming. Hebrews said the end of the age was connected to Christ's first coming. What verses would you show me to support your view that the end of the age = second coming?

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Likewise, this prophecy remains in the future:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).​

How can this be a future prophecy when it says the ones who pierced him will see him? Any Roman soldiers still living today?

This is the same type of "seeing" Jesus was talking about in Matt 26:64 "nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

He was speaking to the Pharisees about something THEY would see - not that some generic future people would see. They would see Jesus "sitting" and "coming" - a collective happening. This is a clear reference to Daniel 7:13:

"And behold, with the clouds of heaven, one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom."

The sitting is a reference to Christ sitting at God's right hand, seated as King of the Kingdom. Jesus said they would see this "hereafter" -denoting nearness.

This is the same type of "seeing" Jesus tells Nathaniel: "You shall see the heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." (John 1:51) Jesus is talking about seeing the demonstration of spiritual realities - not that Nathaniel would literally see angels going up and down.

Of course these verses are referring to things which will actually be seen in the sky or else why would the Lord describe men's reactions to what they see in the sky?:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:25-27).​

Nothing like that happened in the first century or anytime since. Therefore, the Lord Jesus' return to earth has not yet happened.

From Josephus concerning the years before 70AD: "a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it [the destruction of the temple in 70] of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding the cities (6,5,3)."

Therefore, the context demonstrates that the following is the correct translation:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

The context of the global sounding language is:
1.) the destruction of Harod's temple (vs. 6,7)
2.) the persecution of Jesus' disciples by the synagogue (vs. 12)
3.) the destruction of Jerusalem (vs. 20)
4.) Judea (vs. 21)
5.) pregnant women who had to travel by foot because SUV's weren't invented yet (vs. 23)
6.) that generation

I think the regional and time-frame limits established by these contextual clues inform what Jesus meant by the "whole earth."

The kingdom He spoke is not the one He referred to at John 3:5 or else we must believe that the Lord was wrong when He said that a man must be born again in order to enter.

The Kingdom of John 3:5 is the Kingdom that was "at hand" - the one that was established through Christ's resurrection and enthronement in heaven. The harvest of Matt 13 speaks of removing evil doers from the old covenant earthly Kingdom that was primarily centered around Israel.

The age which follows is the kingdom age. So the end of the age will be when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth and begins to sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

When on your timeline did the Lord Jesus return to earth and then sit upon His throne?

So you think Jesus is going to sit on a literal throne in Jerusalem? He's just going to stay seated in some big palace? Or might "sitting on the throne" be a reference to positional authority?

Christ is already sitting on his throne. Acts 2:33-36 indicates Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God (a position of authority) when he ascended into heaven and was made Lord (King). "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet."

He must be sitting and reigning as King of the Kingdom now, because I Cor 15:23-25 says that when Christ returns He will hand the Kingdom over to His Father. It says Jesus will reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet - then when he returns he hands the Kingdom to the Father after death is defeated at the resurrection.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

When Jesus said He didn't know the day or hour, it was a theological reference to the Feast of Trumpets.

Unlike the other feasts, the Feast of Trumpets was not marked by a day, date, time, etc.

It was marked when two witnesses reported to the Sanhedrin that they spotted the new moon.

Since Moses, no Israelite ever knew the day or hour when the Feast of Trumpets would begin.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the 4 spring feasts in 30AD.

The 3 fall feasts were fulfilled in 70AD beginning with the Feast of Trumpets, which no one knew the day or hour it would happen until the two witnesses saw the new moon.

(Rev 11:3) And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Roman siege of Jerusalem began in 66AD and ended in 70AD (1,260 days)

Interesting... I hadn't heard that view before.

 

[tetelestai]

In fact, shortly before His Olivet discourse the Lord Jesus made it plain that the Jews would not see Him again until they accepted Him, saying:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).​

There is nothing in that verse about the Jews accepting Him.

If you understood the 7 feasts of the OT, you wouldn't be so confused.

"Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" is from Psalm 118

(Psalm 118:26) Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! We bless you from the house of the LORD.

Of the 7 feasts, 3 of them required pilgrimages to Jerusalem. The Jews who lived in Jerusalem would line the streets and sing all of Psalm 118 as the Jews who came from out of town entered the city.

So, what Jesus was saying was that they would not see Him again until one of the 3 pilgrimage feasts.

Dispensationalists have butchered Matt 23:39. The verse has absolutely nothing to do with the Jews accepting Him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you think Jesus is going to sit on a literal throne in Jerusalem? He's just going to stay seated in some big palace? Or might "sitting on the throne" be a reference to positional authority?

Why would anyone doubt that the Lord Jesus will sit upon a throne, especially when He said that when He returns to earth He will sit upon His throne?:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

This is the throne upon which He will sit:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David" (Lk.1:32).​

From the very beginning the throne of David was earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth. Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne was "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The preterists say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.

According to them God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises because the teaching of some Christians is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.

Earlier I said the following:

Here Peter spoke of what it would take for the Lord Jesus to return to the earth:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

In fact, shortly before His Olivet discourse the Lord Jesus made it plain that the Jews would not see Him again until they accepted Him, saying:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).​

Since it is obvious that the nation of Israel did not repent then that nation has not seen the Lord Jesus since He walked among them.

Therefore, common sense dictates these words of the Lord have not yet come to pass:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

To this you said:

Again, you are equating the end of the age to Christ's second coming. Hebrews said the end of the age was connected to Christ's first coming. What verses would you show me to support your view that the end of the age = second coming?

The Lord's discourse at Matthew 24 was in answer to a question about what will happen at the end of the age:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

And here is a part of the Lord's answer:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

It seems like everyone but you knows that the Lord Jesus tied His return to earth to the events which will happen at the end of the age.

 

[tetelestai]

From the very beginning the throne of David was earthly in nature,

(Heb 8:5) They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Do you know what a "shadow" is?

"A shadow of what is in heaven"?

(Col 2:17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The reality is found in Christ Jesus.

Yet, you think the reality is found in a man made throne on planet earth.

 

[john w]

The reality is found in Christ Jesus.

Add that satanic stumper to "the land promise is fulfilled in Christ Jesus."


The punk can "prove" anything he wants.

Yet, you think the reality is found in a man made throne on planet earth.

Spammed on every thread-satanic. The child of the devil, with this "man made" satanic bit of sophistry, on record, again, asserts that the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, is "man made," and thus despises it, as the cross is not "reality," that the Lord Jesus Christ wore "man made" clothes, and thus despises the Lord Jesus Christ, asserts that the temple, in the wilderness, was not to be built by Moses, and the children of Israel, and that the LORD God never instructed anyone to build it, and thus is not "reality,"and asserts that all churches, in which respective members of the boc gather, since they are "man made," are not reality, and are to be ignored, and..............................

Tell us, noTettosterone Craigie, what "God made" church do you attend?

And where did you get that "man made" name, "Craigie?"


Deceiving serpent.

 

[Christian Liberty]

You're also in favor of pot.

incorrect. Being for the legalization of something doesn't mean "favoring" that thing. Again you prove that you are stupid and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yet, you think the reality is found in a man made throne on planet earth.

Of course you failed to even attempt to prove anything which I said about the throne of David is in error. This is the throne upon which He will sit:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David" (Lk.1:32).​

From the very beginning the throne of David was earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth. Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne was "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

You say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.

According to you God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises.

And then you do not even have the gumption to even attempt to address these particular points which I made about this.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Dispensationalists have butchered Matt 23:39. The verse has absolutely nothing to do with the Jews accepting Him.

Matthew Henry, who was not a dispensationalists, said this:

"Lastly, Here is the final farewell that Christ took of them and their temple; Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh...Christ will not be seen again till he come in the clouds, and every eye shall see him" (Matthew Henry, Commentary at Matthew 23:39).​

So, what Jesus was saying was that they would not see Him again until one of the 3 pilgrimage feasts.

There were no feasts between the time when the Lord spoke those words at Matthew 23:39 and the time of the Cross.

 

[tetelestai]

There were no feasts between the time when the Lord spoke those words at Matthew 23:39 and the time of the Cross.

The next pilgrimage feast was the Feast of Weeks, which is also called Pentecost.

On Pentecost every able Jew was required to journey to Jerusalem for the Feast.

After the 40 days, Jesus told His Disciples not to leave Jerusaelm

(Acts 1:4) On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Christ Jesus was the Passover Lamb, and rose from the grave on the Feast of Firstfruits. 50 days after the resurrection, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

On the Day of Pentecost in 30AD, every Jew (including the Pharisees) lined the streets and sang "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"

Here's what then happened on Pentecost:

(Acts 2:5,6) Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.

 

[tetelestai]

Matthew Henry, who was not a dispensationalists, said this:

As we see, Matthew Henry does not say the verse means that all the Jews will accept him.

That's something Dispensationalists have made up out of thin air in trying to make Darby's false teachings work.

 

[john w]

As we see, Matthew Henry does not say the verse means that all the Jews will accept him.

That's something Dispensationalists have made up out of thin air in trying to make Darby's false teachings work.

=Resorting again, eventually, to his old reliable Darby spam, is his satanic "doctrine" is getting picked apart.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As we see, Matthew Henry does not say the verse means that all the Jews will accept him.

That's something Dispensationalists have made up out of thin air in trying to make Darby's false teachings work.

We dispensationalists believe what is written here, proving that we did not make anything up:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

Of course since the preterists have no place for this event in their eschatology they just refuse to believe what is written there.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The next pilgrimage feast was the Feast of Weeks, which is also called Pentecost.

Are you not aware that the Lord Jesus was crucified before the day of Pentecost?

Between the time when the Lord Jesus said the words at Matthew 23:39 and His death on the Cross there was no pilgrimage feasts so no one saw Him at any of those feasts, as you imagine:

So, what Jesus was saying was that they would not see Him again until one of the 3 pilgrimage feasts.

You also said:

On the Day of Pentecost in 30AD, every Jew (including the Pharisees) lined the streets and sang "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"

That happened at Matthew 21:9 and the words of the Lord Jesus here came after that:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).​

Nice try but no cigar!