Unsettler
Member
Have there been plot twists in God's relationship with man in the past? [Yes.]
Will there be plot twists in God's relationship with man in the future? [... (Please fill in the blank)]
The Plot by Bob Enyart
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Will there be plot twists in God's relationship with man in the future? [... (Please fill in the blank)]
Don't change the subject.
Unsettler
Member
What does a potential for future plot twists have to do with what we're talking about?
Are you suggesting that Bob thinks that future plot twists can't happen?
If so, where does he do that? What, specifically, makes you think that he's done that?
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Unsettler
Member
I think Bob's unwittingly suggested that future plot twists are not to be expected by incorporating eschatology in the book. If I was allowed to edit a potential 3rd edition of the book, I would delete that section. I would say instead:
Next Stop
This section has been redacted in anticipation of God's next big plot twist. The future is open. Let's look eagerly to whatever the Lord decides to do.
Well, that doesn't make any sense.
Just because there is the potential for a prophesy not to come to pass doesn't mean that the prophesy doesn't exist or that we shouldn't deal with it as though it is very likely to happen. The twists in the plot are not the whole plot. Most of the time, things happen as expected, especially if that expectation exists as a result of God predicting it.
I have said several times on this website that the prophesies in the book of Revelation are no more pre-written history than were the prophesies in the Old Testament that did not come to pass. I was never suggesting that we should ignore the book of Revelation or even that its lack of fulfillment was likely. It is theoretically possible that Israel will repent immediately upon hearing the first trumpet blast or after the fourth. Is it likely? NOT AT ALL! And so if I were to write a book which included in it a discussion of what the bible teaches concerning the predicted future of Israel, I'm not contradicting the rest of my doctrinal system which states very clearly that prophesy isn't pre-written history, I'm merely acknowledging and presenting information relevant to what those predictions are.
I'm reminded of a passage in Romans 11...
Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Here's Paul explicitly teaching that future plot twists are possible and so don't go getting a case of big-head syndrome. I can 100% assure you that Bob's teaching is entirely consistent with this warning that Paul gives to the Body of Christ. In fact, I'm baffled by your belief to the contrary.
Unsettler
Member
Okay, well, Bob's eschatology came across as not too flexible to me. That's why I was saying "dogmatic." Maybe there could be some language added to the 3rd edition that reflects what you just said.
Unsettler
Member
Oh no!!!!!! My big head syndrome is back.
On page 360 of the PDF version Bob says:
"Men must endure to the end under the Covenant of Circumcision whereas under the Covenant of Grace God seals them with the Holy Spirit who guarantees their inheritance from the moment of conversion until the day of redemption." Much dogmatic... and also entirely at odds with your post above (ROM 11:22). Still baffled?
This needs to get fixed in the next edition.
The predictions are what they are, right?
And they aren't "too flexible" are they?
The prophesies in the bible aren't pre-written history but that doesn't mean they were written on toilet paper, right? I mean, very nearly all of the prophesies in the bible come true to the point that the bible even says that whether a prophesy comes true or not is a test as to whether the prophesy was given by a true prophet (Deuteronomy 18:22).
Incidentally, the idea that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD being a fulfillment of Mathew 24 is a preterist teaching that exists almost exclusively within Covenant Theology, which is all but synonymous with Reformed theology. Together, Reformed Covenant theology is basically the opposite of Dispensational Open Theism. I'm not suggesting that you are a preterist but since they are the only set of people I've ever come across that care about 70AD in relation to biblical events and eschatology, it seems logical to make the connection. I only bring it up to say what I just said, that the teaching is antithetical to what Bob is teaching in The Plot.
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The warning in Romans 11 isn't to individual believers. Paul isn't teaching that his followers can lose their salvation but that God can end the dispensation of grace and turn back again to Israel, which would suck for the Gentiles because then they would once again be "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." (Eph. 2:12).
Unsettler
Member
No!!! Of course it is toward individual believers! Look who Paul is addressing:
Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
He is not talking to unbelieving Gentiles. He is talking to Christians.
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Read the context!
He is talking about Israel having been cut off and the Gentiles grafted in. He is simply saying that this isn't a permanent situation and that it can easily be undone and so you gentiles don't think of yourselves as superior to Israel because you're not. He didn't go from discussing groups of people to discussing individual believers. God didn't cut off the believing Jews anyway but rather the unbelieving nation as a whole.
Unsettler
Member
This is illogical. Think about it this way: Could these Christians that are reading Paul's letter say, "Oh, don't worry. We can totally be haughty and without fear. Paul is only warning the group and not us individually. Individually, we can have no negative repercussions regarding our salvation, so go on ahead and be haughty and fearless, because we can't be cut off individually."
I guess there are is a spectrum of open theists, and I am definitely in the more open wing of the party. Chris Fisher addresses this Paul's point starting at about 23:25.
They couldn't rightly think that no matter what Paul was saying here.
The context makes it plain what is being said. It cannot be otherwise. If you want to believe differently then there isn't anything anyone can say to move you.
I definitely am NOT an adherent to the perseverance of the saints nonsense, which is based on predestination, foreknowledge and the idiotic idea that God is immutable. That doctrine is entirely false. What tiny overlap there may be between what I believe and that doctrine is so slight that its hardly worth mentioning.
What I believe and what I'm fully persuaded that Bob has established several times during his ministry, including in The Plot, is that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit UNTIL the Day of Redemption (Ephesians 4:30). I believe that God has given us His Spirit as an earnest payment against our safe arrival before Him on the Day of Redemption (II Corinthians 1:22 & 5:5 & Ephesians 1:14). There could be no greater guarantee than that!
Does that mean that every Christian that makes it to the Day of Redemption will live with God forever? No! It does not mean that. Just like the fact that children who die before the age of accountability won't necessary spend eternity in Heaven. God is not going to force someone who hates Him to spend eternity in heaven. If some saved Christian, through the course of his life, turns from God and ends up hating righteousness and despising God then that isn't going to just magically disappear on Judgement Day. And so, while our eternal destiny isn't 100% locked in, what is locked in is our deliverance to the Day of Redemption. Indeed, that much isn't even based on our own faithfulness but on the faithfulness OF Christ (Galatians 2:16 and elsewhere) for we are identified in Him and it no longer we who live but Christ lives His life through us (Galatians 2:20) and if we are faithless, He remains faithful for Christ cannot deny Himself. (II Timothy 2:13)
You can go on believing that you can lose your salvation if you like but it will very likely lead to legalism. I'm reminded of some favorite passages in one of the books that are on my reading list...
In his classic, ROMANS, VERSE BY VERSE, Wm. R. Newell presents some penetrating thoughts regarding this grace:
"There being no cause in the creature why grace should be shown, the creature must be brought off from trying to give cause to God for His care." "He has been accepted in Christ, who is his standing!" "He is not on probation." "As to his life past, it does not exist before God: he died at the cross, and Christ is his Life"
"To believe, and to consent to be loved while unworthy, is the great secret."
"To refuse to make 'resolutions' and 'vows'; for that is to trust in the flesh."
"To expect to be blessed, though realizing more and more lack of worth."
"To rely on God's chastening (child training) hand as a mark of His kindness."
"To 'hope to be better' (hence acceptable) is to fail to see yourself in Christ only."
"To be disappointed with yourself is to have believed in yourself."
"To be discouraged is unbelief -- as to God's purpose and plan of blessing for you."
To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves."
"The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion."
"To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God's order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man's blessing
depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so -- in proper
measure."
and...
"Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons." --J. W. Sanderson, Jr.
Those are quoted from The Complete Green Letters by Miles J. Stanford and while Stanford was neither an Acts 9 Dispensationalist nor an Open Theist, he was certainly no Calvinist either and despised all of the TULIP doctrines including the Perseverance of The Saints almost as much as I do. The point being that you don't have to buy into the TULIP doctrines or any part of them in order recognize that we are secure in Christ.
Incidentally, I've met Chris, the guy who does the realityisnotoptional videos! He and I met at gathering at a home in the Denver area where one of Bob's church members lives. Bob's memorial service was that weekend and so a bunch of people got together a few different times that weekend. He's cool guy. He isn't a member of Bob's church and I don't often watch his videos so all I know about his ministry is that he is an open theist.
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@Unsettler,
Just wanted to say that I'm actually glad to see that we don't agree on everything. You're a smart guy who isn't afraid to believe things based on the verdict of your own mind. That should make for some very excellent conversations, which I'm very much looking forward to!
Just wanted to say that I'm actually glad to see that we don't agree on everything. You're a smart guy who isn't afraid to believe things based on the verdict of your own mind. That should make for some very excellent conversations, which I'm very much looking forward to!
Unsettler
Member
Very cool! I would love to meet him. He really cracks me up. I think he's hilarious. I would love just to go through a day with him just to listen to his perspective on even mundane daily happenings. Regarding open theism, my thinking is very aligned with his.
One thing Chris says often about prophecy, is that most prophecy is meant to be subverted. (Most prophecy God doesn't even want to happen.) It's mostly a warning to steer people to positive behavior. That's why I think keeping open to future plot twists (eschatology) is crucial, and there is no reason why dogmatism in eschatology should drive a wedge between brothers, when its fulfillment is not even 100% certain anyway!
Regarding the security of our salvation, Chris and I agree that you can spend many years of your life as a great Christian, but then if you fall away in rebellion against God (for example, preaching atheism for the rest of your life); you have chosen to lose your salvation. Security of salvation refers to being brought to the day of redemption without worrying that a demon or brain damage is going to steal it away from you without your competent volition.
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Right Divider
Body part
The best explanation of Roman 11 (particularly 17-25) that I've seen: https://theologyonline.com/threads/explanation-of-romans-11.60048/
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No.
2,000 years of Israel having lost their special status before God.
Ethnic Jews can still be saved under Paul's dispensation.
I'm not a Calvinist. So you can quit with those types of arguments.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Please show where Israel took possession of all of the land that God promised Abraham and His descendants.
Because that's when Israel will be given the land they were promised.
Indeed.
And yet, there's no reason to think that God won't follow through on His promises made to Abraham.
And yet, Moses convinced Him not to.
Are you saying God could not give Moses or one of his grandchildren 12 sons and have their names be on the 12 gates?
Because you say so?
Replace "Jew" with whatever term you like, based on whatever name could have been given to one of the 12 sons of whomever God decided to give to Moses or one of His descendants.
In a nutshell, they were called "Jews" because they were descendants of "Judah."
Your arguments seem to be based on history as if it were already predetermined, and not through historical lenses.
Who's the Calvinist, again?
If God had destroyed Israel, and started over with Moses, there's no reason to think that God could not have established a nation similar to Israel.
Everything that happened after Moses convinced God not to destroy Israel is in line with God not destroying Israel. Such as Jesus saying "Salvation is of the Jews."
So what?
It's not like God cannot adapt His plans...
Why?
Why make that connection?
It means that Israel was no longer special before God.
As Clete said.
I have no doubt in my mind that had Israel turned back to God, instead of rejecting her Messiah, the events of 70 AD would have happened a lot sooner, as part of the Great Tribulation.
But she did reject her Messiah, and so God cut off unbelieving Israel, and turned to working with the Gentiles.
The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy started around Jesus' resurrection/ascension (I don't remember which, likely the latter). It would have ended less than seven years later, in or before 40 AD.
What reason do you have to assert that God HAS "permanently aborted Daniel's 70th week"?
We KNOW what he's going to do. It's just a matter of "when."
Unsettler
Member
Let's back alllllll the way up.
When you say "we KNOW what He's going to do," what does that mean to you? How sure are you? 100%? (As in Darby's and Schofield's Calvinist 100% settled future?)
It means that God has predetermined to do some things. He has predetermined that He will go back to working with Israel, and that when he does, it will bring about the end of the world.
Yes.
Again, I'm not a Calvinist.
But even Open Theists believe that some things are predetermined to happen. And in fact, ONLY Open Theists can truly say that some things are pre-determined.
For example, the coming of the Messiah was PRE-determined.
I am 100% confident that God can and will bring about that which He desires.