In others words, your faith in evolution is without bounds: someday the mysteries will be solved.
The origin(s) of replication and translation
- Thread starter bob b
- Start date
In others words, your faith in evolution is without bounds: someday the mysteries will be solved.
PlastikBuddha
New member
No, my faith in science and human understanding is without bounds. The mysteries will be solved, and others will be revealed.
There never were "mysteries". Life descended from the originally created types.
The real mystery is why so many scientists didn't see the obvious solution.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
When evoists talk about how superstitious (non-Christian Roman/Greek) people worshipped the sun and were confounded by simple facts of nature and use that as evidence against Creation, It's important to remember that the foundation of all naturalistic thought is the idea that life spawned randomly from puddles of mud, ie spontaneous generation.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
Or, chance did it.
macguy
New member
Even though I believe in God's existence and certainly understand that God did create this world, I am leery to make the conclusion in the naturalistic world. Evolution of course doesn't conflict with religious belief unless one takes a literal interpretation of the Bible. The creation hypothesis can be the same if the inferences are taken out. For example, if it could be established that most mutations are non-random then science would say that they "don't know". In science, you cannot say you know that God created this because that alone is an inference and interpretation of the evidence. Perhaps we'll never know how the earth was naturally formed. If people see no problem in saying that "I don't know" for things like abiogenesis, then it should also be applicable in other cases. As christians, on the other hand, we can say that we know because the evidence would justify the conclusion in our world-view. Science on the other hand can't say much in that regard.
Maybe I am being too lenient of a naturalist's definition of science...
Maybe I am being too lenient of a naturalist's definition of science...
PlastikBuddha
New member
Because it is only "obvious" to those who accept it as a matter of faith. To the rest of us it is pure nonsense.
PlastikBuddha
New member
Who's using that as evidence of anything? That's not evidence it's assertion. The evidence is the scientific data.
It is becoming increasingly obvious that you are an atheist.
PlastikBuddha
New member
Can't you read? A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C! Agnostics go!!!! :bannana:
Although I fail to see how that is an issue here. We have been talking about science, not religion, correct?
csuguy
Well-known member
Although, one could say religion is science of the soul...
When it comes to TOL Science and Religion are one.... Forum... Religion, as it includes origins...
No scientist would use TOL as a science forum. Imagine it
That is a common misconception creationists have about science. If if formed naturalistically (as God says in Genesis) then it could not have been random. And (of course) since spontaneous generation is the idea that complex animals form from rotting organic matter, it's obvious no scientist thinks it was by spontaneous generation.
Hypothesis
The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of lifeEugene V Koonin
National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20894, USA
http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/15
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I have just discovered that the Eugene Koonin who suggested the above multiverse origin of the DNA/RNA/protein interlocked sytem in an article in Biology Direct that started this thread is no "small fry" in the field.
This is his bio from Wikipedia:
Eugene V. Koonin (PhD) is an expert in the field of biotechnology.
Credentials: Senior Investigator, National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD, USA MS (1978) and PhD (1983) in Molecular Biology from Department of Biology, Moscow State University, Moscow, Russia. Research in Computational Biology in Institute of Poliomyelitis and Institute of Microbiology, Moscow (Russia) in 1985-1991. Research in Computational Biology and Genomics at NCBI since 1991. Editor of Genome Analysis section in Trends in Genetics. Koonin has an unusual Erdős number of 2.
Principal research goals:
1. Comparative analysis of sequenced genomes and automatic methods for genome-scale annotation of gene functions.
2. Application of comparative genomics for phylogenetic analysis, reconstruction of ancestral life forms and building large-scale evolutionary scenarios.
3. Mathematical modeling of genome evolution.
4. Computational study of the major transitions in the evolution of life, such as the origin of eukaryotes.
5. Evolution of eukaryotic signaling and developmental pathways from the comparative-genomic perspective.
6. Testing fundamental predictions of the theory of evolution using genome-wide sequence comparison.
Koonin's page at the National Center for Biotechnology Information
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/CBBresearch/Koonin/
The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of lifeEugene V Koonin
National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20894, USA
http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/15
---------
I have just discovered that the Eugene Koonin who suggested the above multiverse origin of the DNA/RNA/protein interlocked sytem in an article in Biology Direct that started this thread is no "small fry" in the field.
This is his bio from Wikipedia:
Eugene V. Koonin (PhD) is an expert in the field of biotechnology.
Credentials: Senior Investigator, National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD, USA MS (1978) and PhD (1983) in Molecular Biology from Department of Biology, Moscow State University, Moscow, Russia. Research in Computational Biology in Institute of Poliomyelitis and Institute of Microbiology, Moscow (Russia) in 1985-1991. Research in Computational Biology and Genomics at NCBI since 1991. Editor of Genome Analysis section in Trends in Genetics. Koonin has an unusual Erdős number of 2.
Principal research goals:
1. Comparative analysis of sequenced genomes and automatic methods for genome-scale annotation of gene functions.
2. Application of comparative genomics for phylogenetic analysis, reconstruction of ancestral life forms and building large-scale evolutionary scenarios.
3. Mathematical modeling of genome evolution.
4. Computational study of the major transitions in the evolution of life, such as the origin of eukaryotes.
5. Evolution of eukaryotic signaling and developmental pathways from the comparative-genomic perspective.
6. Testing fundamental predictions of the theory of evolution using genome-wide sequence comparison.
Koonin's page at the National Center for Biotechnology Information
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/CBBresearch/Koonin/
mighty_duck
New member
This would be an important discovery if the suggestions made by Koonin were being disputed, or his credibility was in question. I don't think a single post in this thread was made to that effect.
Our current understanding of abiogenesis is incomplete at best. There are no conclusions from this that help your case.
You are wrong. Most people 'blew off' the notion that an infinity of universes was not worth a bit of consideration. So why did Koonin submit this article for publication and risk the scorn of the peer reviewers? I submit that he did this because he considers the rise of replication-transcription an impenetrable "mystery".
Koonin's hypothesis helps my case.
The solution to the mystery which drove Koonin to formulate his multiverse hypothesis is that God created multiple types in the beginning, with the replication-transcription system already in place (ditto for sexual reproduction and the Hoxdomains).
noguru
Well-known member
Bob does "impenetrable mystery" in this context mean unknown or unknowable?
And your position is that somehow Koonin supports your stand re special creation just a few thousand years ago? Need your reading glasses changed? Or is this just one of your "throw out a name" routines?
You do nothing to advance any Christian view of the real world.
Hmmm...
On the origin of the translation system and the genetic code in the RNA world by means of natural selection, exaptation, and subfunctionalization.Wolf YI, Koonin EV.
National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20894, USA. koonin@ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.
ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: The origin of the translation system is, arguably, the central and the hardest problem in the study of the origin of life, and one of the hardest in all evolutionary biology. The problem has a clear catch-22 aspect: high translation fidelity hardly can be achieved without a complex, highly evolved set of RNAs and proteins but an elaborate protein machinery could not evolve without an accurate translation system. The origin of the genetic code and whether it evolved on the basis of a stereochemical correspondence between amino acids and their cognate codons (or anticodons), through selectional optimization of the code vocabulary, as a "frozen accident" or via a combination of all these routes is another wide open problem despite extensive theoretical and experimental studies. Here we combine the results of comparative genomics of translation system components, data on interaction of amino acids with their cognate codons and anticodons, and data on catalytic activities of ribozymes to develop conceptual models for the origins of the translation system and the genetic code. RESULTS: Our main guide in constructing the models is the Darwinian Continuity Principle whereby a scenario for the evolution of a complex system must consist of plausible elementary steps, each conferring a distinct advantage on the evolving ensemble of genetic elements. Evolution of the translation system is envisaged to occur in a compartmentalized ensemble of replicating, co-selected RNA segments, i.e., in a RNA World containing ribozymes with versatile activities. Since evolution has no foresight, the translation system could not evolve in the RNA World as the result of selection for protein synthesis and must have been a by-product of evolution drive by selection for another function, i.e., the translation system evolved via the exaptation route. It is proposed that the evolutionary process that eventually led to the emergence of translation started with the selection for ribozymes binding abiogenic amino acids that stimulated ribozyme-catalyzed reactions. The proposed scenario for the evolution of translation consists of the following steps: binding of amino acids to a ribozyme resulting in an enhancement of its catalytic activity; evolution of the amino-acid-stimulated ribozyme into a peptide ligase (predecessor of the large ribosomal subunit) yielding, initially, a unique peptide activating the original ribozyme and, possibly, other ribozymes in the ensemble; evolution of self-charging proto-tRNAs that were selected, initially, for accumulation of amino acids, and subsequently, for delivery of amino acids to the peptide ligase; joining of the peptide ligase with a distinct RNA molecule (predecessor of the small ribosomal subunit) carrying a built-in template for more efficient, complementary binding of charged proto-tRNAs; evolution of the ability of the peptide ligase to assemble peptides using exogenous RNAs as template for complementary binding of charged proteo-tRNAs, yielding peptides with the potential to activate different ribozymes; evolution of the translocation function of the protoribosome leading to the production of increasingly longer peptides (the first proteins), i.e., the origin of translation. The specifics of the recognition of amino acids by proto-tRNAs and the origin of the genetic code depend on whether or not there is a physical affinity between amino acids and their cognate codons or anticodons, a problem that remains unresolved. CONCLUSION: We describe a stepwise model for the origin of the translation system in the ancient RNA world such that each step confers a distinct advantage onto an ensemble of co-evolving genetic elements. Under this scenario, the primary cause for the emergence of translation was the ability of amino acids and peptides to stimulate reactions catalyzed by ribozymes. Thus, the translation system might have evolved as the result of selection for ribozymes capable of, initially, efficient amino acid binding, and subsequently, synthesis of increasingly versatile peptides. Several aspects of this scenario are amenable to experimental testing.
It looks as though you hit the wall again, bob.
Do you conider "scenarios" to be science?
Also, I noticed that you failed to provide a link so that we could see the date of Koonin's proposed "scenario".