ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[glorydaz]

Our regeneration is from above.

I never said born "again."

You would have caught this distinction if you actually were as astute as you only think you are.

But yours is much that you are parroting from some one's else's teaching - it is not really your own.

Yours is what you have ended up subscribing to out of your "what makes sense to me."

It is why we differ in understandings.

Of course, you will now take all this wrong and find yourself having to hold yourself in check some

I'm thinking you're trying to make me angry. Too late, retard, Lon already did it.

You said "born from above". If you didn't mean that then tell me what you did mean, Mr. explainer.

 

[God's Truth]

Wrong. It doesn't "necessarily mean" any such thing. The very next verse says this: "Many were made sinners....."

Romans 5:19KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

We are born inclined to negativity/sin, even from the womb.

None of us know God until we are taught about Him.

 

[glorydaz]

I never thought I would ever hear you say that to me. Sounds good, apology accepted.

You're quite welcome. I was wrong.

Romans 6:4
We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newnes

2 Timothy 2:11
This is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Dead to Christ would mean the same as dead to sin. Sin has no more dominion over you. You don't really want to say that about Christ, do you?

Buried with Him and died with Him are a lot different.

 

[Lon]

Let's end this:

Two questions:

1) John 14:6 Was the Lord Jesus Christ speaking truthfully?
2) Killing any infant, guarantees them eternal life because they are sinless: true/false?

Imho, this ends the discussion and reduces the latter to heresy lest I call my Lord, God and Savior, a liar. /thread

Question # 3: who did you decide has the truth?

 

[glorydaz]

We are born inclined to negativity/sin, even from the womb.

None of us know God until we are taught about Him.

Then why did the Lord say we should become like little children?

Matthew 18:3KV And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

How do you know the Lord has not revealed Himself to children? Romans 1 says the things of God are clearly seen and understood by his creatures.

Romans 1:19-20KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

 

[glorydaz]

Let's end this:

Two questions:

1) John 14:6 Was the Lord Jesus Christ speaking truthfully?
2) Killing any infant, guarantees them eternal life because they are sinless: true/false?

Imho, this ends the discussion and reduces the latter to heresy lest I call my Lord, God and Savior, a liar. /thread

Question # 3: who did you decide has the truth?

There you go, pretending like you have the one and only meaning for that verse.

You leave. I'm not finished with this topic.

You can't even explain how Jesus is fully human but doesn't have this mysterious sin nature we supposedly inherited from Adam. :wave:




Heck, you can't even admit you stand on verses that fall apart when read in their context. :AMR:

 

[Tambora]

I'd bet John W, however, is against sinless doctrine. "Obvious" has had this doctrine on the 'naughty list' for centuries. One person, wanting to storm orthodox gates has a huge job before them. It better have some big-guns as it were. Pebbles against the fortress just aren't going to cut it. To date, Jerry is the only 'guy' I know of that espouses this. Mothers who love their 'angels' of course think like this. Something in a mother's eyes, make up 'wives tales.' It isn't all bad, but when it gets in the way of clear thinking.

"storm the orthodox gates"
:rotfl:


Dear Lon,

GD and I are looking at two verses of scripture (not 'orthodox' opinion), and the evidence we see in scripture is that "all" is used in one verse and "many" in the other verse.
That much is obvious.

 

[God's Truth]

You're always hoping other people need to relax, aren't you? :chuckle:

I was correcting your interpretation of the emoticon I used. It wasn't confused, it was sick (nigh onto dead).

What is the difference if you are confused about what I am saying or sick? If you weren't confused you would not be sick. Again, maybe you make others sick but they don't say it?

The point is that you shouldn't be claiming Adam and Eve were in the body of Christ unless you can show some proof of that. Look around and see what you can find to back up your statements. You managed to do it once already.....try it again.

I am glad you asked for scriptures. It would have been nice though if would have thought about what I said and reasoned that it was possible instead of over reacting.

Read this scripture, it tells us all things created were created through Jesus.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[m] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Though the whole world was made through the body of Christ/God, sin then separated us from God, the body. However, the saved before Jesus' appearing, they came near to God through their faith and obedience. Faith and obedience is the faith of Abel, and Noah, and then in Abraham.

When the people of the Old Testament times died, those who had faith and obedience, their spirits went to Abraham, for this was as close to God as one could be.

When Jesus came in the flesh and died for us, he took away the sin that separated us from God, the sins that separate us from the body of God.

Romans 5:10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

2 Corinthians 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Ephesians 2:16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Now read this next scripture. We see that from the beginning all things were created through Jesus, now Jesus through his body reconciles himself and all things to him again.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

 

[Danoh]

I'm thinking you're trying to make me angry. Too late, retard, Lon already did it.

You said "born from above". If you didn't mean that then tell me what you did mean, Mr. explainer.

Nope. I was not trying to make you angry.

I always speak my mind.

That is just your misread again.

Further, it is you who have allowed yourself to go there.

You think that is sound, but all it is is you rationalizing in your fleshly mind your having given into your flesh's lie that you have been injured, you are the issue, not Christ, and it is time for payback.

That is what your kind refer to as being yourself.

All it actually is, is momentary fall that you might give into its' hollow victory.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is what none of you seem to have learned anything about.

And yet, there it is in Scripture - calling your being yourself what it is - a fall from grace.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

File all that under passages "for us" triple exclamation point, that we ignore, that we might be the issue, contrary to the fact of...

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

THIS is YOUR victory, GD.

Not the payback of "well, you're a jerk, because I'm being me."

Given this, whether we were born again, from above, over the river and through the woods at grandmother's house, or in the back of a car on the way to the hospital, matters little.

THE ABOVE is what the Spirit from ABOVE in a New Creature...is what is meant to matter.

:think:

 

[glorydaz]

What is the difference if you are confused about what I am saying or sick? If you weren't confused you would not be sick. Again, maybe you make others sick but they don't say it?



I am glad you asked for scriptures. It would have been nice though if would have thought about what I said and reasoned that it was possible instead of over reacting.

Read this scripture, it tells us all things created were created through Jesus.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[m] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Though the whole world was made through the body of Christ/God, sin then separated us from God, the body. However, the saved before Jesus' appearing, they came near to God through their faith and obedience. Faith and obedience is the faith of Abel, and Noah, and then in Abraham.

When the people of the Old Testament times died, those who had faith and obedience, their spirits went to Abraham, for this was as close to God as one could be.

When Jesus came in the flesh and died for us, he took away the sin that separated us from God, the sins that separate us from the body of God.

Romans 5:10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

2 Corinthians 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Ephesians 2:16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Now read this next scripture. We see that from the beginning all things were created through Jesus, now Jesus through his body reconciles himself and all things to him again.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

I call that reaching.

 

[Tambora]

You leave. I'm not finished with this topic.

YAY! Cause I like this type study (ie. the way we are approaching it). It can be very informative, one way or the other.
You start connecting dots that do, for all intents and purposes, appear to fit nicely.
Every dot you run across on the topic, you see if it can connect to the line of dots you have already created thus far.
And if it cannot connect, then you back up on your dot line till it does ........... and that shows WHERE the error is.
Could be the previous dot where the error was, so ya have to test and see if your new dot fits, and if not ... ya keep going back till it does.
And if it goes all the way back to the first dot, then you know to scrap the whole things!

This type of study can sometimes be more productive than trying to force scripture meet a preconceived conclusion.

So, THANKS GloryDaze!

 

[glorydaz]

Nope. I was not trying to make you angry.

I always speak my mind.

That is just your misread again.

Further, it is you who have allowed yourself to go there.

You think that is sound, but all it is is you rationalizing in your fleshly mind your having given into your flesh's lie that you have been injured, you are the issue, not Christ, and it is time for payback.

That is what your kind refer to as being yourself.

All it actually is, is momentary fall that you might give into its' hollow victory.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is what none of you seem to have learned anything about.

And yet, there it is in Scripture - calling your being yourself what it is - a fall from grace.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

File all that under passages "for us" triple exclamation point, that we ignore, that we might be the issue, contrary to the fact of...

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

THIS is YOUR victory, GD.

Not the payback of "well, you're a jerk, because I'm being me."

Given this, whether we were born again, from above, over the river and through the woods at grandmother's house, or in the back of a car on the way to the hospital, matters little.

THE ABOVE is what the Spirit from ABOVE in a New Creature...is what is meant to matter.

:think:

I guess you think you said something there, but I could barely force myself to skim through. As usual, Danoh, you're out to impress someone....but it won't be me.

 

[Eagles Wings]

I guess you think you said something there, but I could barely force myself to skim through. As usual, Danoh, you're out to impress someone....but it won't be me.

It impressed me because it is an admonishment we can all learn from, even though posted to you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does it then mean, that death comes because 'all sinned' or because of the condition?

Do you really have to ask that question? Of course this is not saying that death passed upon all men because everyone has a sin nature:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

It means that death came to all men because all sinned.

Now let us go forward. What kind of "death"is being spoken of in "bold" at Romans 5:12?

I say that it cannot be speaking of a physical death because all me do not die physically because they sin. All men are denied the very thing which would allow them to live forever physically and thus they are all destined to die physically (Gen.3:22-24;Heb.9:27).

Since john 5:12 is not speaking of a physical death then it must be speaking of a spiritual death.

Do you agree?

 

[Eagles Wings]

"storm the orthodox gates"
:rotfl:


Dear Lon,

GD and I are looking at two verses of scripture (not 'orthodox' opinion), and the evidence we see in scripture is that "all" is used in one verse and "many" in the other verse.
That much is obvious.

The orthodox gates are built on Sola Scriptura from what I understand.

 

[God's Truth]

You're quite welcome. I was wrong.

Thank you again. It is such a nice change to hear that in life from anyone.

Dead to Christ would mean the same as dead to sin. Sin has no more dominion over you. You don't really want to say that about Christ, do you?

Buried with Him and died with Him are a lot different.

I said I died to Christ. Same as died for Christ. Same as died with Christ. I think you are making it into something that it is not. Could you see it though in the way I meant it? I do see what you mean though, dead to sin, died to Christ, instead of with or for.

I said we die to Christ because I did not want anyone to confuse it with my saying I was there when Christ died.

We die to sin and we died for/with Christ, then raise up to life in Christ, we live our new life obeying Jesus.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[Tambora]

Thing is...sometimes "many" refers to some.

Other times "many" refers to all.

Depends both on where any word is found being used...

As well as in light of one or another doctrine.

The word "world" is like that, say, in John 1 and in John 3.

Both where a word is found being used, and doctrine, shed light on its' intended sense, the absence of either of which, results in a different understanding.

And that is just two principles. Never mind all the others that also impact the intended sense or meaning of a word and or phrase.

What quantity is the following referring to?

Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

All you need to do, Danoh, is give a convincing and logical explanation why "many" CANNOT mean "many" in Rom 5:19.

 

[God's Truth]

.

Then why did the Lord say we should become like little children?

Little children are submissive. Of course we are talking about good little children and not a defiant child. We have to become as little children meaning we have to be submissive to God and confess our sin, humbleness.

Matthew 18:3KV And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

How do you know the Lord has not revealed Himself to children? Romans 1 says the things of God are clearly seen and understood by his creatures.

Romans 1:19-20KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That is about this awesome world and how it was made by an Awesome God.

 

[glorydaz]

YAY! Cause I like this type study (ie. the way we are approaching it). It can be very informative, one way or the other.
You start connecting dots that do, for all intents and purposes, appear to fit nicely.
Every dot you run across on the topic, you see if it can connect to the line of dots you have already created thus far.
And if it cannot connect, then you back up on your dot line till it does ........... and that shows WHERE the error is.
Could be the previous dot where the error was, so ya have to test and see if your new dot fits, and if not ... ya keep going back till it does.
And if it goes all the way back to the first dot, then you know to scrap the whole things!

This type of study can sometimes be more productive than trying to force scripture meet a preconceived conclusion.

So, THANKS GloryDaze!

I totally agree. I hate forcing scripture, and I love going back and seeing what happens when those "proof texts" are returned to their context. I love how tracing down "there are none righteous" back to the Psalms and then back to Romans 1 (that talks about those very same "fools"). What a connection that is. Paul quoted the Psalms not to show that none are righteous, but to show it's a fool who claims there is no God, that after knowing God as He created us to know Him, they turned from what was natural for man to horrible sin. And yet, that very verse is used to claim all men are depraved because of Adam's sin.

I also loved how you kept following the track of Adam and Eve being naked. I realized some things I had never really considered before, concerning the conscience and how it works. Dot to dot....:cheers:

 

[glorydaz]

It impressed me because it is an admonishment we can all learn from, even though posted to you.

Well, one man's garbage is another man's treasure.