God's Truth
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That is what YOU do.
You assume God did not preserve His written Word.
You assume greatness to be able to pick and choose what to throw out and keep from God's Word.
The Most Despicable Act
- Thread starter CherubRam
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That is what YOU do.
You assume God did not preserve His written Word.
You assume greatness to be able to pick and choose what to throw out and keep from God's Word.
God's Truth
New member
The New Testament was written in Greek and translated to English.
Hell is separation from God. It is prison, and it is the lake of fire.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I've read a lot of Classical and ANE literature and mythology. I don't think a hell full of eternal torment comes from there. At least, not for people.
The Greeks believed in transmigration of souls. Hades was a place through which one passed, ultimately either reaching Elysium or passing through the sea of forgetfulness and being re-born in a new body. The occasional mortal might be detained there by the gods if he did something to piss them off (e.g. Prometheus)
Tartarus was a place of eternal torment in Greek mythology... but it wasn't for people. It was a holding cell for the Titans (and the occasional rebellious god). Even the people who displeased the gods didn't go there.
If you go earlier than that, then most of the Semitic cultures believed that the dead who were buried traveled downward through the earth until they reached the abyss - an underground river or ocean ruled by a god of order and/or chaos. There the dead might be reborn into new bodies, or they might become permanent residents. Either way, no torture was involved.
A hell full of eternal, conscious, torment seems to me to be a uniquely Christian concept.
CherubRam
New member
Are you guys deaf and blind? I keep getting replies that indicate that you have not read what I have wrote.
God's Truth
New member
That's because you are blind.
CherubRam
New member
[FONT="]Daniel 8:12[/FONT][FONT="]
Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and [FONT="]truth was thrown to the ground.[/FONT][scriptural truth]
[/FONT][FONT="]Rome canonized the scriptures, and the Hellenist also made changes.[/FONT][FONT="]
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[FONT="]Jeremiah 8:8[/FONT][FONT="]
“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually [FONT="]the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]1 Corinthians 2:10[/FONT][FONT="]
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. [FONT="]The spirit searches all things[/FONT], even the deep things of God.
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[FONT="]2 Timothy 3[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
[/FONT][FONT="]By searching scriptures and history we can discover what the truth is. We were told this would happen, it is not a secret. Do not let your emotions guide you, rely upon sound logic to find the truth.[/FONT][FONT="]
[FONT="]1 Timothy 6:20[/FONT]
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: [Oppose false science]
[/FONT][FONT="]In those days Gnosticism was the false science.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
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[FONT="]1 Timothy 1:3[/FONT]
[FONT="][ Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]1 Timothy 1:10[/FONT]
[FONT="]for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine[/FONT]
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[FONT="]1 Timothy 4:16[/FONT]
[FONT="]Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Timothy 4:3[/FONT]
[FONT="]For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Titus 1:9[/FONT]
[FONT="]He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Titus 2:1[/FONT]
[FONT="][ Doing Good for the Sake of the Gospel ] You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.[/FONT]
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CherubRam
New member
[FONT="]Jude[/FONT][FONT="]
1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.[/FONT]
1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.[/FONT]
God's Truth
New member
I noticed that you posted some scriptures here; but before I read them, tell me, are these the scriptures you did not throw out, or the scripture you threw out?
CherubRam
New member
How come you do not know the difference between Pagan and Gnostic lies, and what was originally in the ancient text? All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Wake up!
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I did not see where you sourced your claim that the idea of a hell of eternal torment was a pagan concept. I saw you claim it was, several times, but my own studies seem to indicate the opposite.
If you did reference a source, by all means point me to it. If you haven't got a source on that, then maybe you want to read a bit more before making that claim.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
CherubRam
New member
[FONT="]Etymology and Germanic mythology[/FONT]
[FONT="]Hel (1889) by Johannes Gehrts.[/FONT]
[FONT="]An illustration by Doré of Dante’s 6th circle of Hell, from the Divine Comedy[/FONT]
[FONT="]The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something" The word has cognates in Latin (see verb cēlō, "to hide") and in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish helvede/helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment" whence the Icelandic víti "hell"), and Gothic halja. Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary (however, for the Judeo-Christian origin of the concept see Gehenna).[/FONT]
[FONT="]Some have theorized that English word hell is derived from Old Norse hel. However, this is very unlikely as hel appears in Old English before the Viking invasions. Furthermore, the word has cognates in all the other Germanic languages and has a Proto-Germanic origin. Among other sources, the Poetic Edda, compiled from earlier traditional sources in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, provide information regarding the beliefs of the Norse pagans, including a being named Hel, who is described as ruling over an underworld location of the same name. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Development of Hell Levels in the Middle Ages [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]The conceptions of hell described by the writers of the second-century and third-century church continued to be embellished throughout the rest of the millennium until the middle ages. Roman Catholics in the middle ages developed a series of levels in hell, all with no Biblical basis: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
· [FONT="]Infernus[/FONT][FONT="], the place of torment for the unrighteous damned and the demons. This is the place one most often thinks of when one hears the word "Hell."[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Purgatory[/FONT][FONT="], where the saved souls go to be purged of the temporal effects of their sins[/FONT]
· [FONT="]the Limbo of the Infants (Limbus Infantium)[/FONT][FONT="], a place of perfect, natural, subjective happiness to which those who died before Baptism (and so are denied the Beatific Vision) but who have not committed personal sins (so don't warrant punishment) go. [/FONT]
· [FONT="]the Limbo of the Patriarchs (Limbus Patrum)[/FONT][FONT="], where the righteous who lived before Jesus came to earth went. It is this part of "Hell" that Christ descended into. It no longer exists. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hades[/FONT][FONT="] was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hades[/FONT][FONT="] ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδης), Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.
In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.
Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1.[/FONT][FONT="] An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld. 2. Bible: The state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead. Note: In the KJV about half of scriptures are translated as hell, the other half as grave.
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.
Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.
Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.[/FONT]
God's Truth
New member
So are they the scriptures you decided to keep or throw out?
CherubRam
New member
Late additions made to scriptures should be thrown out. Incorrect translations should be corrected. Pagan and Gnostic notions should be removed also. Do you want the pure word of God, or do you want corrupted scriptures?
Revelation 10New International Version (NIV)
The (Angel/Messenger) and the Little Scroll
10 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea (multitude of peoples) and his left foot on the land,(America) 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. (seven lamps) 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”
5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! (last days) 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”
8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: “Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the (angel/messenger) who is standing on the sea and on the land.”
9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’[a]” 10 I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
Habakkuk 2
1 I will stand at my watch
and station myself on the ramparts;
I will look to see what he will say to me,
and what answer I am to give to this complaint.
The LORD’s Answer
2 Then the LORD replied:
“Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a messenger may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come
and will not delay.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Thank you for your response.
All of this happened far after the Biblical era. Clearly, the idea of a hell of eternal torments was "refined" during the Middle Ages. But this says little about pagan origins for the belief infiltrating the early church.
It appears instead that certain members of the church created such an idea, more by mistake and misunderstanding than any deception. One thing that can be found in early church writings, is an absolute acceptance of the idea of purgatory. One historical scholar I read described the early church as being essentially a purgatorial society.
It appears to me that at some point, the idea of a fiery place where the impure dead are purified in preparation to meet God, was transmitted imperfectly. It simply became a fiery place where the evil dead went, end of story. Oops.
I already touched on it in my previous post, but for the Greeks, Hades was not a hell of torments. Rather, it was a necessary step in the process of transmigration. Greek beliefs regarding eternal life (or eternal torture) are aligned with the idea of a cycle of reincarnation, rather than any permanent state of afterlife.
All of this happened far after the Biblical era. Clearly, the idea of a hell of eternal torments was "refined" during the Middle Ages. But this says little about pagan origins for the belief infiltrating the early church.
It appears instead that certain members of the church created such an idea, more by mistake and misunderstanding than any deception. One thing that can be found in early church writings, is an absolute acceptance of the idea of purgatory. One historical scholar I read described the early church as being essentially a purgatorial society.
It appears to me that at some point, the idea of a fiery place where the impure dead are purified in preparation to meet God, was transmitted imperfectly. It simply became a fiery place where the evil dead went, end of story. Oops.
The dirty little secret of Greek mythology is that nobody in the ancient world took the myths at face value. Greek religion was built around mystery religions, all of which gave second "hidden" meaning to the myths, translating them into something practical, rather than fantastical.
I already touched on it in my previous post, but for the Greeks, Hades was not a hell of torments. Rather, it was a necessary step in the process of transmigration. Greek beliefs regarding eternal life (or eternal torture) are aligned with the idea of a cycle of reincarnation, rather than any permanent state of afterlife.
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