I will never understand what you're doing here.
You flat out refuse to debate anything but more than that you don't even discuss stuff with people. It's like you don't know how to read.
I give up. I no longer care what you think.
The love of money is the root of all evil
- Thread starter marke
- Start date
You flat out refuse to debate anything but more than that you don't even discuss stuff with people. It's like you don't know how to read.
I give up. I no longer care what you think.
Do you think I refuse to debate because I continue to argue my position? You are not looking at this debate properly. I will continue to support my position until convinced by the debate that my position is not wrong. I am not supposed to give up my position simply because others post arguments against it in favor of their own positions they seem unwilling to give up.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
No, I think you refuse to debate because you ignore almost everything anyone (especially me) says. You do not argue your point at all! You state your position and then simply repeat that position in response to anything anyone says that even partially against it. Restating your position in slightly different wording is not debate. It's stupidity and its insulting and its a boring waste of everyone's time, including yours!
Yeah! Well, prove it! Make the freakin' argument then! Do you think I'm supposed to be convinced that I've misunderstood something based on the strength of your personal opinion stated in a single sentence?
No you won't! This was a lie or else you really are as stupid as these posts make you seem. There isn't anything anyone could ever say to convince you of anything - period! GOD HIMSELF would fail to move you an inch on an internet debate forum because you don't care about what anyone is saying. I can't even tell that you bother to read any of it never mind think about it enough to allow it to persuade your mind. You are literally wasting your time here. You have no hope of either convincing a soul of anything you think you have to contribute nor are you open to learning anything from anyone else. What in the world could you possibly be getting out of this website?
NO! No one has suggested that!
What you're supposed to do is to think it through and post your thoughts and reactions to the arguments presented against your position! This website is supposed to be a debate forum where people DEBATE things! Debate is about presenting a position and presenting arguments that support that position. Then, hopefully, someone who is your intellectual equal (or better) will come along and challenge that position and the arguments you've made by presenting counter arguments that rebut the arguments you've already made. Then, if those counter arguments didn't persuade you then it's your turn to rebut those rebuttals with rejoinders, which is nothing more than you explaining why those arguments don't work. That's the way debate actually works but you can't debate if you aren't willing to make the arguments and respond directly to the rebuttals made against your position. What you are doing here isn't debating, it's preaching and it's not even a good example of that!
See what I mean? You just repeat yourself as though I've said nothing at all. You are truly wasting everyone's time here.
Clete
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, at the risk of sounding like a 'professional disinformation agent' I'd suggest it's because a long term far right winger on here is exasperated by the sheer lunacy that now abounds on here and is even encouraged. It wouldn't have been years ago. This place always wore conservative bias on its sleeve but the bat crap crazy was regularly given short shrift. Not so now unfortunately...
The Lord Jesus drew a line between the love of God and the love of money. Jesus was not vague about mammon. A sinner will either love money or he will love God. There is no middle ground.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Utterly complete and total nonsense. Are platitudes and mindless cliches all you know about Christianity?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
No, he's not and Clete is someone who I disagree with all ends up in the main and it's kinda hysterical to see this in some senses. He may be far right but he's not thick.Yup. Clete is once again telling us that Jesus has no clue as to the reality of sin. Jesus just doesn't know what He's talking about.
Oh, wow. Spiritual advice from someone who doesn't believe scripture, No thanks. Jesus never spoke in platitudes and he spoke in simple terms so the uneducated could understand Him.
Clete's problem is too much intellect and not enough faith. He's just like you in many respects. He trusts only that which he can make complex enough to satisfy his ego. Jesus said:
Notice how small the child was. Small enough for Jesus to pick up abd set inside a group of adults.
You, nor Clete, can understand that humbling ourselves and putting self and ego aside so that we can take God at His word is the very condition of salvation according to Jesus. Just as a child takes his parents at their word without assuming he knows more than they do so we adults are to place that kind of trust in our heavenly Father's word. The faith of a child in his parents is the same kind of faith we need in our heavenly Father.
I'll be interested to see how you mock this and claim I'm speaking nonsense although taking Jesus' words literally is the only way to really understand what He meant because of His literal usage of a little child to explain His words. But you're too smart to accept such a simple explanation. It hurts the ego to be told that a child has a better chance of understanding Jesus than an adult. That's why Jesus said we need to humble ourselves.
Liar!Yup. Clete is once again telling us that Jesus has no clue as to the reality of sin. Jesus just doesn't know what He's talking about.
It you who doesn't know what you're talking about.
If this were actually so you'd engage the debate instead of relying solely on the emotional impact of what some might think are clever one liners.
Just as no two truths can contradict each other, there is no conflict between an honest intellect and any matter of faith. God does not ask us to leave our heart (i.e. our mind) at the door when we enter the church. And that's a good thing because it isn't possible to do anyway. It is your intellect that told you that my problem is too much intellect and thus is proof that your problem is the opposite - too little intellect. You think that I don't take Jesus at His word and the exact opposite is the truth. Just precisely the exact opposite! The difference is that I actually spend the effort required to understand what is being said.
Contradictions do not exist, ffreeloader. If you think you've found one, whether its a matter of faith or not, you need to check your premises. You'll find one (or more) of them is false. Let me ask you a question which you will not answer...
Which of the following passages means what it says, which of these to do read and take to mean what it says? Treat it as a little game of "Which of these is not like the others."
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
1 Peter 3:10 For “He who would love life And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips from speaking deceit.
Proverbs 29:24 Whoever is a partner with a thief hates his own life; He swears to tell the truth, but reveals nothing.
Ephesians 5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
John 12:25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Was that one too hard? Let's try this...
Matthew 19:19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ ....
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother,....., he cannot be My disciple.
If you understand Luke 14:26 correctly then its not difficult to understand then Luke 16:13 as well. I suspect you understand neither but the fact of the matter is that Jesus meant what He said! It's just that He didn't speak in modern English and freely used the common figures of speech of His day. Here's a hint the word "hate" doesn't always mean the opposite of love. Biblically, it just means that you love something less than something (or someone) else. Abraham, for example, did not "hate" Leah (Genesis 29:31), he simply loved her less than He love Rachel and God did not "hate" Esau either (Malachi 1:3 & Romans 9:13. It is an EXTREMELY common Hebrew idiom (i.e. figure of speech), which means that you have to spend some effort to remain on the same page as God is on.
Clete
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Hmm, Jesus often spoke in parables in case you've forgotten so if too much intellect is your stumbling block then in itself, no, and not much of an argument on your part either.
Frankly, how 'humble' do you think you generally come across on here? You make all sorts of sweeping statements about people that aren't remotely true, you've even stated that I support extreme measures to the point of death for people on here if you keep track of what you write? So, shove it.
My statement on here is simply thus: That the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil as many translations have, not ALL evil as that obviously doesn't add up
The Bible sums up the love of money, love of pleasure, love of sin, love of rebellion, love of wickedness, and so forth as the love of mammon. A sinner will either love mammon or he will love God, but he cannot do both.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
So, I'm the one who refused to debate you on the vaccines and put you on ignore? As usual you're distorting the history between us. When you decide you want to be truthful about that then we can discuss what the Bible says about the current topic.
So now we have to despise pleasure too?! Pleasure is now on equal footing with sin, rebellion and wickedness?
I spent the weekend with a whole bunch of like minded Christian people remembering a great man, pastor and friend who's life impact is impossible to calculate and it was one of the most pleasurable experiences I've had in decades. Even the memorial service itself, as emotional as it was, was extremely pleasurable and was the only place, this side of heaven, I would ever have wanted to be.
Indeed, every single thing we did this last weekend was pleasurable and was planned and provided for by people because it gave them pleasure to do it. The night we arrived we were invited to someone's home along with whomever else wanted to come. There were dozens of people there and our host fed all of us at his own expense and it was both our pleasure to eat and his pleasure to feed us. The following morning, the memorial service was put on and there's no telling how many people where involved in doing that whole thing and while it wasn't "fun" for any of them, it was both their pleasure and their honor to be involved in the rememberence of their friend, pastor, father, brother, etc. Then that afternoon, my wife and I spent the day with an old friend of mine and his daughter walking through some of the most breath taking landscape that our God's Earth has to offer and that was just as pleasant as it could possibly have been. Then we went to eat dinner and experienced even more pleasure both eating a great meal and visiting with our friends. Then that evening there was yet another get together where dozens more people showed up to be warmed next to a fire outside under God's own stars and having just the most pleasant time visiting, connecting and reconnecting with people who had in common a love for both Bob Enyart and the Lord God whom he had served so well.
The whole experience was entirely pleasurable from beginning to end as I'm sure all who attended would agree and here you are telling us that pleasure is on par with sin and wickedness.
Do you even bother to think at all about the things you say before you say them?
Yes, sinful pleasure is a sin and those who love sinful pleasure are in trouble with God. No, clean and pure pleasures are not wrong. I would have thought you understood that.
Proverbs 21:17
He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.
I understand it perfectly, it is you who cannot think clearly, Marke. This idiotic post of yours make MY POINT!!!!
Why is it that you see this childishly simple point so clearly but cannot apply the exact same line of reasoning to something as simple as money that is rightly yours because you've actually earned it by doing something that someone else valued enough to pay it to you in voluntary and mutually beneficial exchange?
Money is not evil, Marke. Just as, by your own admission, the normal, moderate, reasonable love of pleasure isn't evil, neither is the normal, moderate, reasonable love of money.
Jesus wasn't talking about money per se, He was talking about envy, corruption, greed and the overall desire for that which you have not earned. If that were not so then passages like Matthew 20:1-16 would not be possible.
Clete
Money is not evil. God said the love of money is the root of all evil. I simply believe God.
One whole post ago, you were willing to qualify your belief in the fact that the love of pleasure is a sin, why can't you bring yourself to make the same qualification for the love of money for the same reason?
Your church couldn't function without money and there is every likelihood that your church has a group of guys that go around collecting money every Sunday morning. There's also every likelihood that your church has taken out loans in order to pay for building projects intended to expand the ministry and grow the church, which in turn brings in even more money so that not only can that loan be serviced but yet even more people can be reached by your church. Not only that but I'd bet my own house that someone cuts your pastor a check every week or two so that he can make a living and provide for his family. In short, money is a pretty important part of your church's life and ministry.
Money is life, power and freedom given physical form that can be traded back and forth between people. That's what money actually is. It is a means by which one can convert one's life (i.e. their time and talent) into goods and services that makes their life better. There is no reason not to love money so long as the only money you love is your own money that you have either earned or that has been voluntarily given to you (i.e. gifts, inheritance, etc) and that is therefore yours BY RIGHT. To hate money that rightfully belongs to you is to hate private property and the whole concepts of rights, which is to love slavery and despotism.
So, when Jesus tells us that the love of money is the root of all evil then what is He saying? Well, the passage makes it clear that He's talking about envy. It is lusting after money that has not been earned, it is greed, corruption, avarice or whatever you want to call it (including "the love of money" if you like) that is the root of all kinds of evil. And isn't that just common sense anyway? Would we really need to have to dig through the surrounding text to discover that this is surely what Jesus was talking about? Is there anywhere else in the bible where we read about any such precept as you are here suggesting that Jesus taught? If having any affection or admiration for money at all was sinful and the root of all evil, don't you think God might have mentioned it through Moses or any one of the other Old Testament prophets? But we don't! What we read instead is stuff like this...
Numbers 18:21 “Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.
Deuteronomy 14:22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
Malachi 3:10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this,” Says the Lord of hosts, “If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.
So, the bottom line is, love money but love God more - a lot more - so much more that its as if you hate money by comparison. Pretty easy stuff to understand.
Clete
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