Theology Club: The letter from Paul to the Romans

Nick M

Nick M

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Jerry Shugart said:
Are you saying that when Paul used the word "Gentiles" in this verse he was referring to Jews?:
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17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,​

Me said:
The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.
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It is what Paul said. I am sorry you don't like it, the part where people did in fact keep the law to earn life.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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Romans 3

We know who is speaking to and why. He speaking to gentiles proselytized to Israel. And we know he wants to share his gospel with them.

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

Let’s back up a bit to the point of this question. He said they were guilty and blasphemed the name of God before gentiles.

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

What good is it then? They are also guilty, which we will get to in just a minute.

1What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”​

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?

Being a Jew has its advantage. Paul is also looking at the future. They do not believe, yet his faithfulness will not be made without effect.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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Paul is speaking to gentiles aligned with Israel. This also is the "catholic church". This is why Peter is considered the first pope to them. They are wrong of course, as you can clearly see, and will see more. This church is going to be set aside.

But Paul wanted to tell them that being a Jew does have its advantage. There would be no point in saying so, and mentioning the future if there was not one.

But now, this is showing a change in status. “But now” compared to what was before means there is a change.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

But now, the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed. What does that mean? It means we are righteous without the law. Being a Jew has its advantage, but now there is a change. We are righteous without the law.

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

The righteousness of God goes to those who believe, through the faith of Jesus Christ. He went to the cross, you did not Jason.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God set forth a propitiation by his blood (and it pleased him to do so) through faith (allegiance to a duty) to demonstrate his righteousness because in his forebearance, God passed over the sins that were previously committed. The Passover was a foreshadowing of this event. At Passover death passed over those who believe, and the sign was the blood of the lamb. So could it be for Jason, death will pass over him if he accepts the righteousness of Christ, and throws his filthy rags in the trash.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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Copying this post here from another thread because it also fits with this study.
(I changed a little of his formatting, but not the words.)

Danoh said:
Romans 1-3; 9-11, and 15, are talking about with regard to the status of the faith of God's Word as to His plan and purpose in Himself through His Son by the Spirit as to Israel.

Romans 3
1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?​


Romans 9
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.​

What God purposed in Himself to do as to all the above through His Son by the Spirit in that nation had not failed.

It only appeared to have failed - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 11 continues this thought - what happened with Israel that it appears God was now through with His purpose in Himself through them as to all that?

Romans 11
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

I'm sorry, but that passage is literal! The fact is that...

2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.​

Those were seven thousand sons of Jacob!

Well guess what? You see that principle - Israelites - sons of Jacob?

5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.​

This election of grace is not ours here - he is talking about the sons of Jacob who chose to believe the God of their fathers.

He is talking about this promise ---

Exodus 19
3. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4. Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.​

Verse 8 "all the people" entered into that, but "not all" followed suit.

Romans 9-11 says very little about the Body of Christ because Paul is dealing with the issue of what became of God's faith to His Word as to Israel's adoption, and glory, and the promises, and all the rest.

That despite how things looked, it was...

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.​

He is relating the principle that things do not look as they appear.

And he is relating that to us Gentiles even now, thus his words in
Romans 11
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

You need to carefully restudy all this out in light of the passages alone.
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Danoh

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My lovely sister, Tambora, I ought to send you all my posts to so nicely clean up; nice job; thanks :)
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Nick M said:
I am sorry you don't like it, the part where people did in fact keep the law to earn life.
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So what is said here is in error?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

So in some cases "whosoever" believes is not saved unless they believe and do works? You fail to understand that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Perhaps you do not understand that if it takes "works" then it cannot be said to be of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​
 
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Danoh

New member
Nick M said:
First is his audience.
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.​
They are gentiles in Rome. Gentiles mean those that are not Israel. But they were gentiles that were proselytized to Israel as he says here:
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,​
So these gentiles are going to be familiar to the promises made to Israel. They came to God through Israel, exalting her and keeping of the law. What Paul wants to do is share his gospel with these gentiles. His gospel is not the same as Israel’s good news. They have the same savior but a different ministry and mission. They in Rome knew they were to show their faith by their works. They did not have his good news.
15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.​

The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.
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Thought I'd share my understanding of that. Admittedly, it is an older A9D view. As a result, it will differ some from what you proposed.

I do believe the flow of the text bears it out. Perhaps we might compare further each's starting premise. No offence intended.

From Romans 1:18 to 3:20, Paul is dealing with the issue of how the Gentile ended up far from God, and deserving of His wrath, Gen. 11, and now the Jew also, this side of Israel's fall, for its failure to believe the Law and the Prophets, that Jesus was the Christ, Acts 7.

Paul is laying that out in contrast to the wrath of God the righteousness of God demands upon both without distinction now, but that that righteousness His Son accomplished on behalf of both, has appeased, Rom. 3:21 forward, albeit "til the fullness of the Gentiles be come in," Rom. 11:25.

[At which point, God will "cut off" this offer of His Grace and Peace in His Son that Paul often starts his Epistles with, and the world will then begin toward that short work in righteousness upon the earth, Rom. 9:28, as the world heads towards Daniel's 70th week, 2 Thess. 2.]

Towards this contrast, Paul first tackles the issue of how the Gentiles ended themselves up in their predicament by their own hand, Rom. 1:18-32.

Then in Rom. 2:17 to 3:20, he deals with the Jew in his boast that he is called of God, and has all the answers, all the while causing His name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles that God had allowed Israel to end up ruled by per Moses, for their continued disobedience of the Law they claimed they walked in, see Daniel 9's prayer.

This is the same sense of Ephesians 2:11's "that which is called the circumcision made by hands" the sense of which is "that which is the so called circumcision - with its resting in the fact of its being made by hands" - Romans 2: 24's "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

It is what Paul is referring to in Gal. 2:15-17's "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles... we ourselves are found sinners..."
 
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Danoh

New member
glorydaz said:
:thumb:

And I think Paul knew his letter would change that. Which is why he wrote it the way he did as the letter went on.
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I see too much having been left out of consideration when weighing these matters.

Hopefully we can explore our differences both in approach, and resulting understanding, with out too many landmines going off, if any :)
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
heir said:
There's no scriptural evidence that Cornelius was circumcised. He was a blesser (Genesis 12:3 KJV),
n.
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Hi and Rom 2:26 explains why Cornelius was CIRCUMCISED as recorded in verse 26 READS ; Therefore , if the UNCIRCUMCISION should keep the Rifgteous Requirements of the Law ( which Cornelius DID in Acts 10:2 ) WILL NOT his Uncircumcision be counted for CIRCUMCISION !!

DAN P
 
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Danoh

New member
DAN P said:
Hi and Rom 2:26 explains why Cornelius was CIRCUMCISED as recorded in verse 26 READS ; Therefore , if the UNCIRCUMCISION should keep the Rifgteous Requirements of the Law ( which Cornelius DID in Acts 10:2 ) WILL NOT his Uncircumcision be counted for CIRCUMCISION !!

DAN P
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Consider that if such had been the case, Peter and company not only would not have considered Cornelius unclean, but they would not have been astonished at what happened there in Acts 10, see also, Acts 11.

While, when said issue came up in Acts 15, Peter related that otherwise was the actual case: parts and assembly included - by faith - no circumcision needed :)

See also Exodus 12: 43-48; Eph. 2: 11-12.

Romans 2:26 is talking about a different issue.
 
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