Even more amazing is that Paul so dominated the New Gospel message that he influenced the writing of the gospels, the whole of the NT. I'm surprised that John the apostle didn't fall out with Paul like some of the others did.
Caino
The Late Great Urantia Revelation
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Even more amazing is that Paul so dominated the New Gospel message that he influenced the writing of the gospels, the whole of the NT. I'm surprised that John the apostle didn't fall out with Paul like some of the others did.
Caino
Aimiel
Well-known member
I resent your implications as well as your tone; I'm neither a coward (in any sense) or dishonest in the least. Your eternal destiny relies upon your faith in The Lord and you demonstrate that you have none. Instead you rely upon the words of a demon.
Aimiel
Well-known member
They neither fell out or rejected his teachings, especially after Peter straightened them out. His words are Gospel as much as the rest of The Holy Scriptures. Urantia is nothing but half-truth which is the same as: complete deception. :duh:
Aimiel
Well-known member
All truly CAN come to be reborn. All do not. Take yourself for instance... you have yet to demonstrate faith in The Risen Christ. Instead you push this Jebus of Urantia. He isn't Lord, he is a phony.
I was simply quoting Jesus in his discussions with Nathanial about the scriptures and those cowards who hid behind the scriptures and lacked consistency. Jesus wasn't the Messiah; he didn't fit into all of the redacted writings of the Hebrew priest or the prophets. So they used the supposed inspiration of the scripture in order to try to discredit Jesus.
Caino
Aimiel
Well-known member
In order to quote Jesus you have to use The Holy Scriptures... Urantia is plagiarized from Scripture, but is completely deceptive. Have you been reading my posts at ALL?!?
Yes, I do read your post and respond to them.
Atonement theology is theoretical, it's based on the mere acknowledgement of belief which leads to erasing mans inherited sin debt. Adherents to this vampire theology are aligned with those who killed Jesus; they need the death of Jesus to pay their sin debt.
The real gospel of Jesus is based on spiritual transformation by first repenting, recognizing sonship with God, then a sincere desire to do God's will, grow in grace and in spirit. We have no original sin debt.
Caino
JESUS AND HIS FATHER DISCUSS SACRIFICES
Jesus now 13 years old:
“Though many of the temple rituals very touchingly impressed his sense of the beautiful and the symbolic, he was always disappointed by the explanation of the real meanings of these ceremonies which his parents would offer in answer to his many searching inquiries. Jesus simply would not accept explanations of worship and religious devotion which involved belief in the wrath of God or the anger of the Almighty. In further discussion of these questions, after the conclusion of the temple visit, when his father became mildly insistent that he acknowledge acceptance of the orthodox Jewish beliefs, Jesus turned suddenly upon his parents and, looking appealingly into the eyes of his father, said: 'My father, it cannot be true—the Father in heaven cannot so regard his erring children on earth. The heavenly Father cannot love his children less than you love me. And I well know, no matter what unwise thing I might do, you would never pour out wrath upon me nor vent anger against me. If you, my earthly father, possess such human reflections of the Divine, how much more must the heavenly Father be filled with goodness and overflowing with mercy. I refuse to believe that my Father in heaven loves me less than my father on earth.'
“When Joseph and Mary heard these words of their first-born son, they held their peace. And never again did they seek to change his mind about the love of God and the mercifulness of the Father in heaven. ” (1378.1) 125:0.6
Caino
THE FIRST BLOODLESS PASSOVER
Jesus at age 14:
“On this visit occurred one of those periodic outbreaks of rebellion against tradition—the expression of resentment for those ceremonial practices which Jesus deemed misrepresentative of his Father in heaven. Not knowing Jesus was coming, Lazarus had arranged to celebrate the Passover with friends in an adjoining village down the Jericho road. Jesus now proposed that they celebrate the feast where they were, at Lazarus's house. ‘But,' said Lazarus, ‘we have no paschal lamb.' And then Jesus entered upon a prolonged and convincing dissertation to the effect that the Father in heaven was not truly concerned with such childlike and meaningless rituals. After solemn and fervent prayer they rose, and Jesus said: 'Let the childlike and darkened minds of my people serve their God as Moses directed; it is better that they do, but let us who have seen the light of life no longer approach our Father by the darkness of death. Let us be free in the knowledge of the truth of our Father's eternal love.'
“That evening about twilight these four sat down and partook of the first Passover feast ever to be celebrated by devout Jews without the paschal lamb. The unleavened bread and the wine had been made ready for this Passover, and these emblems, which Jesus termed ‘the bread of life' and ‘the water of life,' he served to his companions, and they ate in solemn conformity with the teachings just imparted. It was his custom to engage in this sacramental ritual whenever he paid subsequent visits to Bethany. When he returned home, he told all this to his mother. She was shocked at first but came gradually to see his viewpoint; nevertheless, she was greatly relieved when Jesus assured her that he did not intend to introduce this new idea of the Passover in their family. At home with the children he continued, year by year, to eat the Passover ‘according to the law of Moses.' ” (1404.5) 127:6.6
Caino
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, since no one is without sin, except Him. We need His Blood or we have no part in Him.
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John didn't mis-quote Jesus. He is The One Who said that you have to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. It doesn't make one a vampire, but rather gives one eternal life. Without His Blood your sins cannot be forgiven.
What is more real than acknowledging that only Jesus' Blood can wash one's sins away? What's more real than taking The True Manna?
John 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
We show forth His sacrifice in remembrance as we partake of the elements. We honor His Words by doing so. Taking offence at His Blood and His Body shows that we have no part in Him, because we do not discern that He died in our place, taking our death, the payment for our sin so that we might have His Life. The transformed life is one of repentance, not just an act but true constant repentance and growth.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, God forgives sin, without using blood, by The Very One Whose Blood would make the way for anyone to be in The Father's Presence. He sees the woman through Jesus' Blood, just as He saw Jesus' Work in the earth finished the moment He was born, as He had the angels declare to the shepherds: "Peace on earth, goodwill towards men." He is The Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the earth. God moves by faith, something few understand. It's why He doesn't strike men dead the moment they commit their first sin. It's why He sent His Son to take our death so that we could have His Life. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
You make a good case for why you would have rejected Jesus then had you been an equally stubborn Jew, and still reject his Liberal gospel now.
God forgives without the need for primitive sacrifices, but even today backward and unthinking men still need to approach God through the darkness of death simply because they cannot humble themselves to receive Gods forgiveness and then experience that forgiveness by forging others.
Caino
....the childishness of substitutional God/man sacrifice:
(2017.3) 188:4.8 When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.
(2017.4) 188:4.9 All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.
(2017.5) 188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.
(2017.6) 188:4.11 Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.
Caino
(2017.3) 188:4.8 When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.
(2017.4) 188:4.9 All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.
(2017.5) 188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.
(2017.6) 188:4.11 Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.
Caino
Aimiel
Well-known member
While that is a very clever ruse, it isn't fooling God (or me for that matter). I'm not rejecting His Word, you are. He wants us to not only remember Him but to do so my ceremonially drinking His Blood and eating His Flesh, showing forth His death and our life until He comes again. We not only show Him our thanks by doing this, but we also show others that we discern His Blood and His Flesh. Their faith may depend on it.
Sorry, but He said quite differently. Adam and Eve could not cover themselves, without a sacrifice. This first sacrifice symbolized Jesus' sacrifice on the cross: He was clothed in sin so that we could be clothed in His Righteousness. You have to humble yourself to His Holy Word which describes many sacrifices which symbolize Christ's supreme sacrifice. Without showing faith in His Word, either The Written Word (Holy Bible) or The Living Word (Jesus) you show what your faith is in: self. You worship your own knowledge and you worship the false Jebus, who is a demon, pretending to be The Lord. You need to repent. Pretending forgiveness and exalting your own self-righteousness won't get you anything but puffed up in your own estimation. There's only One Door into Heaven: The Sacrificial Lamb of God, Whose Blood Alone can cleanse your sin and give you eternal life.
Sin, Sacrifice, and Atonement
The concept of Sin, Sacrifice, and Atonement evolved over hundreds of thousands of years starting with primitive man.
(974.1) 89:0.1 PRIMITIVE man regarded himself as being in debt to the spirits, as standing in need of redemption. As the savages looked at it, in justice the spirits might have visited much more bad luck upon them. As time passed, this concept developed into the doctrine of sin and salvation. The soul was looked upon as coming into the world under forfeit — original sin. The soul must be ransomed; a scapegoat must be provided. The head-hunter, in addition to practicing the cult of skull worship, was able to provide a substitute for his own life, a scapeman.
(974.2) 89:0.2 The savage was early possessed with the notion that spirits derive supreme satisfaction from the sight of human misery, suffering, and humiliation. At first, man was only concerned with sins of commission, but later he became exercised over sins of omission. And the whole subsequent sacrificial system grew up around these two ideas. This new ritual had to do with the observance of the propitiation ceremonies of sacrifice. Primitive man believed that something special must be done to win the favor of the gods; only advanced civilization recognizes a consistently even-tempered and benevolent God. Propitiation was insurance against immediate ill luck rather than investment in future bliss. And the rituals of avoidance, exorcism, coercion, and propitiation all merge into one another.
The Hebrews adopted the concept of original sin from the Persians while in Babylonian captivity, when they rewrote the OT books and put in Noah’s flood story they also included the erroneous doctrine of original sin. Adam and Eve incarnate on an evolved, previously populated earth that had already fallen. But death is normal, this is not our home, we eather translate or die and awake in the resurrection halls,
Caino
The Origen’s of Sacrifice
.......(978.2) 89:4.5 The earliest idea of the sacrifice was that of a neutrality assessment levied by ancestral spirits; only later did the idea of atonement develop. As man got away from the notion of the evolutionary origin of the race, as the traditions of the days of the Planetary Prince and the sojourn of Adam filtered down through time, the concept of sin and of original sin became widespread, so that sacrifice for accidental and personal sin evolved into the doctrine of sacrifice for the atonement of racial sin. The atonement of the sacrifice was a blanket insurance device which covered even the resentment and jealousy of an unknown god.
(978.3) 89:4.6 Surrounded by so many sensitive spirits and grasping gods, primitive man was face to face with such a host of creditor deities that it required all the priests, ritual, and sacrifices throughout an entire lifetime to get him out of spiritual debt. The doctrine of original sin, or racial guilt, started every person out in serious debt to the spirit powers.
(978.4) 89:4.7 Gifts and bribes are given to men; but when tendered to the gods, they are described as being dedicated, made sacred, or are called sacrifices. Renunciation was the negative form of propitiation; sacrifice became the positive form. The act of propitiation included praise, glorification, flattery, and even entertainment. And it is the remnants of these positive practices of the olden propitiation cult that constitute the modern forms of divine worship. Present-day forms of worship are simply the ritualization of these ancient sacrificial techniques of positive propitiation.
The "good news" that all men and women are sons and daughters of a loving God, that we are debt free, not needing to be slaves to the erroneous teachings of religion about original sin, this is like water over parched earth to those having lived under the yoke of the sacrificial system for so long.
Caino
Aimiel
Well-known member
It's faith-based, since we don't actually drink blood or eat flesh. The symbols are sanctified by our faith in God's Word, without which no one can come to Him.
We have to be child-like to come to Him...
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
We have to sit under His Holy Word as a child without leaning to our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledging Him as our teacher, otherwise we just follow our own thoughts. It's when we listen to His Holy Word that faith comes alive in us. It's when we subject ourselves to His Teaching as if we were little children that we have the right attitude (humility which is the currency of Heaven) that we come to Him as our Heavenly Father and learn from His Presence and His Might that we are His Beloved. When we exalt ourselves and our knowledge, we put that before Him and He doesn't want us to have any false gods before Him. He wants us all to Himself. Urantia teaches Jebus: a false god. The Holy Bible teaches us to come to The Lord and how to have a One-on-one relationship with Him. Urantia teaches that we are our own god. It brings The Bible down to less than nothing.
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