The Joys of Catholicism

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ

And thank the Lord for it.

What's funny is that in reality, for this analogy to be right, there are a million (OK not a million, but a lot more than just one) stacks all labeled "Biblical Christianity", and if you added all those stacks together, it would make a far taller stack than Roman Catholicism's stack. Which is ironic, don't you think?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
And it is metaphor that we are struggling with?

I'm going to take another bite of the apple ... again.

Isn't it interesting that in baptism, the water symbolizes or represents or means or signifies Christ's blood, but if Roman Catholic theology of the Eucharist is correct, then the chalice actually IS His actual blood? The water of baptism is metaphorically, iow, His blood, but we believe the chalice is Really His blood (and body, soul and divinity).

It means baptism is ... symbolizing wine.

This is getting dangerously close to Mormonism, isn't it? Don't they celebrate their version of Communion with bread and water, rather than with bread and grape juice or wine?

Anyway just a thought.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Only so far as scripture is silent about it being an obligation.

But you have in Hebrews explicitly to not forsake gathering together, you have Our Lord saying wherever two or more are gathered together, and you have Acts and Paul saying Sundays. It's like the rainbow of colors coming out from a prism with white light shining into it. The white shining light isn't in the Bible, but the Bible is just the rainbow, but the Apostolic oral tradition is the Sunday obligation, the white light, that enters into a prism and comes out a rainbow, which we see in the Bible. "As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be." The Sunday obligation was in the beginning.

So ... OK it's silent. But it's a rainbow coming out of a prism. We know that means white light is shining into the prism on the other side, on the silent side, which is only silent for you, if you believe only in Sola Scriptura. The Apostles also did teach with their mouths and not just with their pens. And we are more "Sola Apostles" than we are Sola Scriptura. ofc the Apostles teach the Scripture is infallible, reliable, trustworthy, and God's literal Word. So it's like we get our cake and get to eat it too.
 

JudgeRightly

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But you have in Hebrews explicitly to not forsake gathering together, you have Our Lord saying wherever two or more are gathered together,

"Western" thought tends to not think in terms of groups, but rather in terms of individuals.

But the entire nature of Israel's covenant is as a nation as a whole, not many individuals.

Telling people "don't forsake gathering together" and "where two or three are gathered" is entirely consistent with that way of thinking, and not at all consistent with "individuals."

The Body of Christ is one Body made of many members, not a singular nation.

and you have Acts and Paul saying Sundays.

Rather, you have Paul, and Acts 9 onwards, if that, saying that it doesn't matter which day is esteemed holy, so long as it's for God.

It's like the rainbow of colors coming out from a prism with white light shining into it. The white shining light isn't in the Bible, but the Bible is just the rainbow, but the Apostolic oral tradition is the Sunday obligation, the white light, that enters into a prism and comes out a rainbow, which we see in the Bible. "As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be." The Sunday obligation was in the beginning.

No, it wasn't.

And we are more "Sola Apostles" than we are Sola Scriptura.

More like "Sola whatever the church teaches the Apostles were saying and not Sola Scriptura at all."

ofc the Apostles teach the Scripture is infallible, reliable, trustworthy, and God's literal Word. So it's like we get our cake and get to eat it too.

But the RCC doesn't act like it, preferring to instead act like they have authority over what scripture says.
 
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Lon

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I don't even know what you're talking about. All I know is I started a thread, arguing that the scandal and crisis of pederasty and pedophilia was not due to faggotry among the ministerial priests and bishops. I was roundly and conclusively shouted down. I licked my wounds, and considered where I went wrong. To me, the question wasn't about whether a priest or bishop was a faggot, but whether or not he was a criminal, and everybody told me no. It's about faggotry.

So I licked my wounds, and I considered all the rumors and stories I had heard, things like that the Church no longer ordains faggots.

And then ofc Pope Francis, to the rescue (as per normal), tells the whole World, we need to get faggotry out of the seminaries.

That was all before Pope John Paul II revised and updated the Catechism, saying faggotry is inherently disordered.

That was all before the electors elected Pope Benedict XVI, who had actually written the words of the Catechism about faggotry being intrinsically disordered and absolutely immoral (John Paul commissioned Benedict to revise and update the Catechism)

And then Francis was elected, and people thought, Oh look, the Roman Catholics are going to start being pro-faggotry. No. This is all based on conspiracy and "dog whistles". Let me tell you about a dog whistle. It's when someone says "faggot", that you know they're no ally of faggotry, and Pope Francis said "faggot" and he said we need to get faggotry out of seminaries. That's a dog whistle. It means to those who can hear it, The Church is never going to change the Apostolic teaching on faggotry, it is absolutely gravely immoral and disordered and diabolic. Period. That's what Francis said, in dog whistle. He's not changing the Church's teaching on faggotry.

So if faggotry in the ministerial priesthood was the root cause of the child sex abuse problem, what more would you want the Roman Catholic Church to do about it, then doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on faggotry being completely gravely sinful, and on directly working to prevent any faggots from ordination?

And believe me, I don't mean faggot in a bad way, I just mean what they do, where their proclivities lie, they can't help it, their disordered desire isn't their own fault, but a faggot is someone who engages in faggotry, and that's what faggot means, is someone who actually engages in faggotry, not just someone who's got a disordered desire or attraction, there are plenty of people who have safely discerned celibacy rather than ever indulge that temptation. Those who have not ever indulged it, are not faggots. Faggots have actually done it. They've dipped their toe in the water, so to speak. That's a faggot. But the one who never does that, even if he wants to do it, is no faggot. He discerns celibacy. There are plenty of people who discern celibacy though they have no such desire, and there are those who do have that desire or attraction or temptation. Celibacy is available to everybody. And sometimes it's just obv what you're called to do.

That's a whole other reason to eschew from the top-down. Here's your sign? When it is as prolific, and not until these issue became public (had been happening over 50 years!), then 'holiness' and 'real-presence' must necessarily be questioned. It is very odd, as a Protestant, you moved to Catholicism during this period in time. When an organization has indulgences, abuses, etc. etc. etc. it is time to question reality, which I certainly did. You simply must begin questioning. I appreciate your stick-to-it-iveness but it has reached a point to where you have to ask yourself what you are willing to eat and drink with your Eucharist. Next? I went to a United Methodist Church and in 1980 the vote went through to allow gay ministers. I was gone. The next church I went to was very serious about protecting families and children. Fingerprints, FBI checks, the works. Good group where I became associate pastor. Serious about their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and one another. The Eucharist has never been so meaningful to me as there.
 

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But you have in Hebrews explicitly to not forsake gathering together, you have Our Lord saying wherever two or more are gathered together, and you have Acts and Paul saying Sundays.
You are taking that scripture TOTALLY and COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT.

That's not surprising. You and most of Churchianity do that all the time.

That "forsaking gathering together" has NOTHING to do with Sunday. The CONTEXT is the tribulation and the AUDIENCE is Israel.

Regarding the "two of three"... that is talking about THE LAW!

Deut 19:15 (AKJV/PCE)​
(19:15) ¶ One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Paul never specified a "day of worship". Paul says that it's fine to consider all days the same.

Rom 14:5 (AKJV/PCE)​
(14:5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.​
 

Derf

Well-known member
I'm going to take another bite of the apple ... again.

Isn't it interesting that in baptism, the water symbolizes or represents or means or signifies Christ's blood, but if Roman Catholic theology of the Eucharist is correct, then the chalice actually IS His actual blood? The water of baptism is metaphorically, iow, His blood, but we believe the chalice is Really His blood (and body, soul and divinity).

It means baptism is ... symbolizing wine.
Why? Why would one want to symbolize wine? Wouldn't it be because wine reminds us of something else? Otherwise, we are worshiping wine. Do we worship Jesus' blood? Or do we worship the one Who gave His blood? Do we worship the body? Doesn't that mean we worship the church at least as much as the chalice? But neither seems appropriate in place of worshiping the One whom those things are named after. We are Christians, named after Christ. But we, like Paul and Barnabas, don't accept worship. Only Christ is worthy. So if His body (the Church) and His little namesakes (Christians), eschew worship, wouldn't the wafer and chalice also, if they could speak?
This is getting dangerously close to Mormonism, isn't it? Don't they celebrate their version of Communion with bread and water, rather than with bread and grape juice or wine?
Pretend churches always get dangerously close to true faith.
Anyway just a thought.
I'm glad you're thinking and rethinking about it.
 

7djengo7

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The Apostles also did teach with their mouths and not just with their pens.
Taught whom "with their mouths"? You?
Taught what "with their mouths"? Things they did not teach "with their pens"?

There again, as always, you just find different ways to reword your erroneous denial and rejection of the God-breathed truth penned by the Apostle:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

There, among other things, Paul is stating the fact that the man of God needs nothing you would claim someone taught with his mouth but which is not taught by Scripture.

And we are more "Sola Apostles" than we are Sola Scriptura.
Who would mistake you (or any other Romanist) for being Sola Scriptura? And, aside from what Scripture records the Apostles having said and done, whatever beyond that Scripture record is claimed they said and/or did is, at best, of no authority. No one is morally obligated to credit extra-Biblical claims that this or that Apostle said or did this or that.
 
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7djengo7

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Luther removed a Psalm, plus seven books of your Old Testament.
What do you mean? How could anyone have "removed" any word, sentence, verse, chapter, or book from the Old Testament, seeing as the Old Testament still consists of all 39 of its books, as it always has, and Psalms still consists of all 150 of its psalms, as it always has?

Which seven of the 39 books that have always constituted the entirety of the Old Testament are you saying Luther "removed"?

Here all their names are, just as listed in the Bible's table of contents:

  1. Genesis
  2. Exodus
  3. Leviticus
  4. Numbers
  5. Deuteronomy
  6. Joshua
  7. Judges
  8. Ruth
  9. 1 Samuel
  10. 2 Samuel
  11. 1 Kings
  12. 2 Kings
  13. 1 Chronicles
  14. 2 Chronicles
  15. Ezra
  16. Nehemiah
  17. Esther
  18. Job
  19. Psalms
  20. Proverbs
  21. Ecclesiastes
  22. Song of Solomon
  23. Isaiah
  24. Jeremiah
  25. Lamentations
  26. Ezekiel
  27. Daniel
  28. Hosea
  29. Joel
  30. Amos
  31. Obadiah
  32. Jonah
  33. Micah
  34. Nahum
  35. Habakkuk
  36. Zephaniah
  37. Haggai
  38. Zechariah
  39. Malachi
Which seven of those 39 books are you saying Luther "removed" from those 39 books?

He exercised that divine power, to decide on the table of contents in the Scripture.
—says someone deciding for himself which things he will call "Scripture" and which things he won't call "Scripture"/which things he will call "not Scripture".

And I fail to see how one's making such inevitable decisions for himself/herself could reasonably be called "divine power". It couldn't.
 

Nick M

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Why would one want to symbolize wine? Wouldn't it be because wine reminds us of something else? Otherwise, we are worshiping wine. Do we worship Jesus' blood? Or do we worship the one Who gave His blood? Do we worship the body?
This reminds me of Matthew 13, every time a Catholic tries to explain that he is literally eating flesh and drinking blood. Despite so such statements or implications in scripture.

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.


They still don't know. It is still hidden. They still think it is literal.
 

Derf

Well-known member
This reminds me of Matthew 13, every time a Catholic tries to explain that he is literally eating flesh and drinking blood. Despite so such statements or implications in scripture.

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

They still don't know. It is still hidden. They still think it is literal.
But it seems like it was revealed (through Christ's death and Paul's message), and then hidden.
 

Nick M

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But it seems like it was revealed (through Christ's death and Paul's message), and then hidden.
Maybe I don't know what you mean. After Paul, everything is revealed, except that which he hasn't revealed. And he says he has dealt everyone a measure of faith. And faith comes by hearing. We are to preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. When they hear it they are without excuse. Are you saying it was hidden again? Or just communion. Also they change what they do through the decades, a little at a time. I heard him say "as we are taught by the church". I appreciated the honesty that their doctrine on "the eucharist" is not from scripture. As a side note, I have been lobbing grenades, figuratively speaking, at the youtube host Father Mike, as he calls himself. I have laid out scripture as simple and to the point as possible. I hope they are seeing it and changing their mind.
 
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Derf

Well-known member
Maybe I don't know what you mean. After Paul, everything is revealed, except that which he hasn't revealed.
My point was that truth is still hidden from the Jews, even after it was revealed 2000 years ago.
And he says he has dealt everyone a measure of faith. And faith comes by hearing. We are to preach 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. When they hear it, and they are without excuse.
Agreed.
Are you saying it was hidden again? Or just communion. Also they change what they do through the decades, a little at a time. I heard him say "as we are taught by the church". I appreciated the honesty that their doctrine on "the eucharist" is not from scripture. As a side note, I have been lobbing grenades, figuratively speaking, at the youtube host Father Mike, as he calls himself. I have laid out scripture as simple and to the point as possible. I hope they are seeing it and changing their mind.
It seems, like so many RCC doctrines, to be a grand distraction from the simple truth of the gospel.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
What do you mean? How could anyone have "removed" any word, sentence, verse, chapter, or book from the Old Testament, seeing as the Old Testament still

What do you mean "still"? This is just begging the question. Straw man.

consists of all 39 of its books, as it always has, and Psalms still consists of all 150 of its psalms, as it always has?

It HASN'T always.

Which seven of the 39 books that have always constituted the entirety of the Old Testament are you saying Luther "removed"?

Begging the question!

Here all their names are, just as listed in the Bible's

No—in YOUR Bible's, which is LUTHER's Bible, which he changed.

table of contents:

According to LUTHER.

  1. Genesis
  2. Exodus
  3. Leviticus
  4. Numbers
  5. Deuteronomy
  6. Joshua
  7. Judges
  8. Ruth
  9. 1 Samuel
  10. 2 Samuel
  11. 1 Kings
  12. 2 Kings
  13. 1 Chronicles
  14. 2 Chronicles
  15. Ezra
  16. Nehemiah
  17. Esther
  18. Job
  19. Psalms
  20. Proverbs
  21. Ecclesiastes
  22. Song of Solomon
  23. Isaiah
  24. Jeremiah
  25. Lamentations
  26. Ezekiel
  27. Daniel
  28. Hosea
  29. Joel
  30. Amos
  31. Obadiah
  32. Jonah
  33. Micah
  34. Nahum
  35. Habakkuk
  36. Zephaniah
  37. Haggai
  38. Zechariah
  39. Malachi
Which seven of those 39 books are you saying Luther "removed" from those 39 books?


—says someone deciding for himself which things he will call "Scripture" and which things he won't call "Scripture"/which things he will call "not Scripture".

And you're having LUTHER decide for you—fine—justify it. Why LUTHER? why him? why not some other guy instead? have you even considered any other options? or are you just a lemming? Defend your position, why you just ASSUME the Bible you order from Amazon or some Evangelical Bible publisher is THE Bible? Instead of it very VERY obv just being LUTHER's Bible? Why do you think LUTHER's Bible is THE Bible? What sustains and supports and substantiates that ASSUMPTION?

I'm well aware I'm begging the question in calling it an assumption btw—that's because this is a bluff—I'm BETTING you actually have no answer, and that you're going to go study the question now, and see what all the other options are, and see where Luther's Bible was INVENTED in history, and which Bible came BEFORE Luther's version, and for how long the Church read THAT version of the Bible.

And I fail to see how one's making such inevitable decisions for himself/herself could reasonably be called "divine power". It couldn't.

The divine power, which Luther presumed to exercise validly and licitly, is to set the BIBLE's table of contents! Isn't that GOD's choice to make? and not Luther's?!

Answer me.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Taught whom "with their mouths"?

The Church.

You?
Taught what "with their mouths"?

We call it Apostolic, oral, Sacred Tradition. Tradition isn't a charged word here, it just means, we inherited it, we received it, meaning, we didn't develop it ourselves, it was given to us, or handed to us, handed on, transmitted. We were born and it already was there. That's all "tradition" means here.

It being Apostolic Tradition means it's the same infallibility and reliability as the Bible. It IS the Word of God, just the same as the Bible.

Things they did not teach "with their pens"?

Some things, but mostly no, Apostolic Sacred Tradition is mainly what is also written in Scripture. It's natural to differentiate between what was handed down to us orally with what was written and gravitate toward things which are not explicit in Scripture, but mainly Apostolic oral tradition just echoes Scripture, which makes sense since they are both generated by the Apostles, who either wrote the Scripture, or who validly, licitly approved the Scripture's table of contents.

There again, as always, you just find different ways to reword your erroneous denial and rejection of the God-breathed truth penned by the Apostle:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

There, among other things, Paul is stating the fact that the man of God needs nothing you would claim someone taught with his mouth but which is not taught by Scripture.

Well then according to you, you've just ruled out the New Testament, since Paul here without controversy delimits "Scripture" to only the Old Testament or Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which Timothy, a Gentile, would have known from his youth). So according to you, your argument, you don't even need the New Testament to be "perfect," and "thoroughly furnished"?

And besides, it's "thoroughly furnished UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS", and THAT's interesting, since the Old Testament was ONLY written to and for the houses of Israel and Judah! But somehow Paul's here saying a GENTILE is THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS through reading ONLY the OLD TESTAMENT.

Meanwhile Roman Catholicism simpliciter accepts both the New Testament and Apostolic Sacred oral Tradition as the Word of God, which I think is actually consistent with some other Pauline Scripture, where he equates what he himself, an Apostle, is teaching, with the Word of God. Somewhere, maybe one of the Thessalonian epistles.

Who would mistake you (or any other Romanist

We also respond to papist, and papism. Those are some other gems.

) for being Sola Scriptura?

Oh, you wouldn't. I'm just saying, Roman Catholics simpliciter are even more Sola Scriptura than you all are—but we're more that just Sola Scriptura—we're "Sola APOSTLES", and the Apostles GAVE us the Scripture, wielding their DIVINE power, entrusted to them by JESUS.

And, aside from what Scripture records the Apostles having said and done, whatever beyond that Scripture record is claimed they said and/or did is, at best, of no authority.

Unless the Scripture itself indicates you're wrong, right? I mean ofc. ofc you're NOT saying that you alone know, within your heart or whatever, is the actual Word of God—not without looking to see that it's IN the Scripture—right? Course not.

No one is morally obligated to credit extra-Biblical claims that this or that Apostle said or did this or that.

Your Bible's table of contents is an extra-Biblical claim that doesn't even COME from any Apostle.
 

JudgeRightly

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which is LUTHER's Bible, which he changed.

Scripture was scripture the moment it was written, not when the RCC compiled the texts into a book with other non-scriptural texts.

Remember, the oracles of God were comitted to the Jews, not the RCC.

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Why? Why would one want to symbolize wine? Wouldn't it be because wine reminds us of something else? Otherwise, we are worshiping wine. Do we worship Jesus' blood? Or do we worship the one Who gave His blood?

There is no distinction in Roman Catholicism simpliciter (nor in Eastern Orthodoxy, the other ancient Eastern Church branches—and not even in many of the oldest Protestant branches, such as Lutheranism and Anglicanism (Methodists descend from Anglicans).

If His blood is really present, then so is He.

Do we worship the body? Doesn't that mean we worship the church at least as much as the chalice?

"For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." That's literally HOW we are One Body [of Christ], is through PARTAKING of the One bread. Right? So no, we don't WORSHIP the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ because we EAT the Body of Christ, PARTAKING of the divine nature.

But neither seems appropriate in place of worshiping the One whom those things are named after.

Roman Catholic simpliciter metaphysics has the blood being really present, so you're committing begging the question here, and straw manning.

We are Christians, named after Christ.

And we are the Body of Christ because we EAT His Body.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
$$ Joh 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
$$ Joh 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
$$ Joh 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
$$ Joh 6:57
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

(As I've said before, the JW version of the Bible (which is also Luther's Bible just fwiw, by coincidence I'm sure) replaces the word "IS" when Jesus is quoted as saying, "This IS My body" with the word "MEANS"—but they don't change anything in John 6—which is fascinating—and it's also a really faithful translation, since none of them knew the significance of John 6, because they all bought into "IS" being "MEANS" already.)

But we, like Paul and Barnabas, don't accept worship. Only Christ is worthy. So if His body (the Church) and His little namesakes (Christians), eschew worship, wouldn't the wafer and chalice also, if they could speak?

If the Real Presence is false—sure. But that's what you have to actually show, your aim isn't to show what it means if the Real Presence is false, your aim is to actually show it's false—beyond a reasonable doubt. I think that's a fair standard. Or burden.

iow what you say here is only true conditionally, or hypothetically. It depends on your antecedent, which you're only currently positing, actually being really true. (Which is that the Real Presence is false.)

Pretend churches always get dangerously close to true faith.

The Mormons also use Luther's Bible, although they do ofc add to the Scriptures as well, the Book of Mormon, and there's another one or two more—aren't there? So they're even worse than the JWs I think. They're WAY out there. At least the JWs are almost descendants of the ancient Arians—I say almost because, ironically enough, the Arians, while they denied Christ's divine nature, nonetheless still believed in His Real Presence in the Eucharist! lol. It's kind of funny sometimes where you see how far afield all the branches of the Christian faith have gone in these intervening 2000 odd years, since the beginning of the Gospel.

I'm glad you're thinking and rethinking about it.

Good. :)
 
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