ECT The "Hail Mary" Prayer

[Ktoyou]

Then, why does one need to intercede? Can He not judge us Himself?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Then, why does one need to intercede? Can He not judge us Himself?

I am sure your church has prayer groups or you have been to prayer groups. Why have them? What's the point? Why not just trust Jesus alone and forget all the praying for each other? The answer to that question is the answer to your question.

Oh, sure, I don't need to ask the saints to pray for me, and for that matter I don't need to ask anyone else to pray for me either. But it is a good thing to do. I don';t know how else to answer your question.

 

[God's Truth]

I didn't say "advise", did I.
I don't mind having this conversation with you but you have to be honest please.

I said that the saints intercede for us, which is a way saying that they "pray" for us.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people — for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Paul here tells us that when we pray (intercede) for one another, this pleases God. There is little doubt that those who are actually IN heaven also do what is pleasing to God.

My belief is that I can ask Mary, or Paul,or John, top pray for me the same way I can ask you or a friend to pray for me.

If I asked you to pray for me would you say no?



If I asked you to pray for me what would you say

You can ASK me to pray for you, but you are NOT TO PRAY TO ME.

 

[Ktoyou]

The fellowship is made up of living people praying directly to God, not to Mary, as Catholics do.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The fellowship is made up of living people praying directly to God, not to Mary, as Catholics do.

Well now, a moment ago you seemed to understand that saints are in heaven. Since they are there then they are alive. In fact, as Paul indicates, they are more alive and see more clearly than us. I encourage you to pray, without any preconceptions, over the idea that one does not STOP being part of the Body of Christ when they go to heaven. All are alive in Christ, whether on the earth or above the earth. (BTW: Its not just Catholics.)

You can ASK me to pray for you, but you are NOT TO PRAY TO ME.

Ahhhh... ....now comes the language issue. I am surprised you King James guys have a problem with the Old English.

The word "prayer" is often the sticky point for some people. In this case, when we say we pray "to" Mary and the saints, it is the archaic Old English form of the word we are using.

In Old English, the phrase "Pray thee", or its contraction "Prithee" was often used the way we might say "Would you please......". For example, we might say "Please open your door", whereas in Old English they might say, "Prithee open thy door", or "Pray thee, open thy door".

Its one of those words that has more than one meaning. But for people who think it has only one meaning - worship - they therefore think we "worship" Mary and the saints. But obviously, we do not.

 

[Ktoyou]

I prey with good Christian folks directly to God. We usually say, "in Christ's name".

 

[God's Truth]

Ahhhh... ....now comes the language issue. I am surprised you King James guys have a problem with the Old English.

I will use any Holy Bible that you want to use; it will not change the fact that you are not to pray to anyone but only to God.

The word "prayer" is often the sticky point for some people. In this case, when we say we pray "to" Mary and the saints, it is the archaic Old English form of the word we are using.

No way, for the Catholics DO PRAY TO Mary and the other "Saints".

I have posted those false prayers and will post them again for you.

 

[God's Truth]

This is a prayer to Mary, not just a request for Mary to pray for you.

Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I prey with good Christian folks directly to God. We usually say, "in Christ's name".

That's okay, I do too. I just want you to at least try to wrap your head around the concept that on earth or in heaven, all are alive in Christ. If you ever get to that place, this all may make sense to you.

And by the way I appreciate the fact that you are at least listening. You may not agree, but I think now you at least have a more accurate understanding of my belief. Hopefully its not quite the Pagan Idolatry . you once thought. LOL.

I will use any Holy Bible that you want to use; it will not change the fact that you are not to pray to anyone but only to God.
No way, for the Catholics DO PRAY TO Mary and the other "Saints".
I have posted those false prayers and will post them again for you.

You I have no interest in speaking to any more. You don't listen. Good day to you.

 

[Ktoyou]

I agree they are in the Body of Christ and will always be. What differs among those who believe like me, is we pray for the living, not the dead. This is not to say the dead are not on the Body of Christ and are in Heaven

 

[patrick jane]

Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,


Do you say David is the Father of God?

You are cuck coo.

:kookoo:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I agree they are in the Body of Christ and will always be. What differs among those who believe like me, is we pray for the living, not the dead. This is not to say the dead are not on the Body of Christ and are in Heaven

But ask yourself, if they are in heaven, and if they see more clearly than we do (1 Corinthians 13:12) then how can we say they are dead? How can the dead see and be aware? See my point? Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles."

:kookoo:

Yah, I have no idea what they were talking about.

 

[Ktoyou]

Sure, they are alive in the spirit, yet God hears all who pray sincerely, and do not importune.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Sure, they are alive in the spirit, yet God hears all who pray sincerely, and do not importune.

Okay. Now, I am not trying to trick you or anything, but you say they are alive. Thats a good start.

Now, consider this: Angels are pure spirit too, right? When we go to heaven and become pure spirit, we sort of like angels (sort of) insofar as we are alive and aware but do not have corporeal bodies.

That's just something to toss into the mix to think about.

Well, I cannot see any barrier to you asking a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for you. As you say, they are are alive (spiritually, yes), and they are in Christ. What other hindrances do you believe prevent you from asking these Christians to pray for you. I am honestly asking here.

 

[Ktoyou]

I think part of it is a matter of custom. There are some of all faiths who, feeling a deceased parent is in heaven, may call upon them. God, who knows ll of it, surely will understand, as long as one prays to god, and does not fail to call upon His name.

It only becomes a problem when one believes there has to be an intercede, or go-between. God is available to all of us who are faithful.

BTW: I do not hate Catholics, I do not like the idea of priests and the notion of absolution, although this has no motive for hating members of that church. I do not hate any christian faith ma d have more reason to sanction those who mix Judaism with Christianity, to the point of denying the deity of Christ.

For the record, i do not hate them ether.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I think part of it is a matter of custom. There are some of all faiths who, feeling a deceased parent is in heaven, may call upon them. God, who knows ll of it, surely will understand, as long as one prays to god, and does not fail to call upon His name.

It only becomes a problem when one believes there has to be an intercede, or go-between. God is available to all of us who are faithful.

BTW: I do not hate Catholics, I do not like the idea of priests and the notion of absolution, although this has no motive for hating members of that church. I do not hate any christian faith ma d have more reason to sanction those who mix Judaism with Christianity, to the point of denying the deity of Christ.

For the record, i do not hate them ether.

Wrap-up (I am sleepy):

You make a good point that even I forgot about. Lots of people feeling a deceased parent is in heaven may call upon them. Dare I say that its an instinct that comes "naturally"?

"Go-between": I made sure to note that one does not HAVE to ask for prayers from the saints just as one does not HAVE has ask for prayers from people they know in church. Its just something you can do, and its a nice thing to do. Even the Hail Mary is not mandatory.

"Absolution": That is a whole other subject obviously. Maybe we'll get into that after this one runs its course.

I am done. Later.

 

[God's Truth]

You I have no interest in speaking to any more. You don't listen. Good day to you.

I will still speak to the Catholics and tell them they are doing wrong when they pray to Mary or anyone else living or dead.

 

[God's Truth]

But ask yourself, if they are in heaven, and if they see more clearly than we do (1 Corinthians 13:12) then how can we say they are dead? How can the dead see and be aware? See my point? Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles."

The scripture says a cloud of witnesses, not a cloud of spirits to be prayed to.

 

[steko]

I have said the Messiah is God.

Jesus the Messiah is GOD.
Not all Messiahs in Scripture are GOD.
The Persian King Cyrus was a Messiah.
He was certainly not GOD.

I said Christ means God.

And you're wrong.
Christ is the English word for the Greek Christos which is translated from the Hebrew Maschiach- anointed.

Jesus Christ is the Messiah and is God.

Yes, He is.

Jesus means God.

No, Jesus/Iesous/Yeshua means 'salvation'.

Christ means God.

No, Christ/Christos/Mashiach means 'anointed'.

All the saved are anointed with the Holy Spirit, but that does not make us God. It does not make Saul God either.

My point exactly.

You really have a difficulty with logic.

I know I am free.

Good deal.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus the Messiah is GOD.
Not all Messiahs in Scripture are GOD.
The Persian King Cyrus was a Messiah.
He was certainly not GOD.



And you're wrong.
Christ is the English word for the Greek Christos which is translated from the Hebrew Maschiach- anointed.





Yes, He is.



No, Jesus/Iesous/Yeshua means 'salvation'.




No, Christ/Christos/Mashiach means 'anointed'.




My point exactly.

You really have a difficulty with logic.





Good deal.

Could you show me scripture in the Bible where someone besides Jesus is called the Messiah?

Could you show me scripture where someone besides Jesus is called the Christ?