ECT The Gospel Proper

[Rosenritter]

Why do you automatically assume that the Ethiopian eunuch was a non-Jew?

Peter said that the first gentiles to hear the gospel and believe, heard it from his mouth... Acts 10 and Acts 15.

Take note of the Ethiopian's confession. Is there anything lacking from what is considered to be a necessary confession unto salvation for us today?

1. When the bible says that someone is from Syria, it is safe to assume that they are Syrian unless stated otherwise. Likewise, when the bible says that someone is from Ethiopia, it is safe to assume they are Ethiopian unless stated otherwise. If the bible says they are from Judah, it is safe to assume they are Jewish unless stated otherwise. Do you see anyplace where that passage says "A Jew from Ethiopia?" I don't. Why should anyone assume that someone described as an Ethiopian was Jewish in the absence of any such statement?

2. Are you counting words in "confessions?" Are we saved by faith or saved by words?

 

[Rosenritter]

Here is my theory on that. Jesus said, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
Baptism completes the conversion of a Christian so Satan is going to do his best to prevent that. Just like the forbidden fruit. Simple law, eat and you will die but Satan added one simple word, "NOT".

I believe he has done the same with baptism. So this is what people believe today, whoever believes and is NOT baptized will be saved.

... beings the conversion? I don't think that baptism completes conversion. Conversion implies changing to something else. I would describe baptism as the beginning of spiritual conversion, not the end.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV
(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[Rosenritter]

You see the preaching of the kingdom on earth as the same elephant as the kingdom in heaven?

Hmmmm.....

Where did you see anything called "the kingdom in heaven?"

"Kingdom in heaven" .... 0 verses found.

I think I see why you are confused... I am not sure what you are reading, but it is likely that your brain is substituting one phrase (with a different meaning) other than what it actually says in scripture. There is a big difference in meaning between "in" and "of."

I am familiar with a different phrase:

"Kingdom of heaven" ... 32 verses found.

The kingdom of heaven is established upon the earth, also called the kingdom of God or simply kingdom.

"Kingdom of God" ... 69 verses found.

Note that Matthew 19:23-24 below (and Luke 18:24-25) establish that "the kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God" are just two ways of saying the same thing.

Matthew 19:23-24 KJV
(23) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Also compare Matthew 13:31 with Mark 4:30 and Luke 13:19: Matthew uses "kingdom of God" whereas Mark and Luke use "kingdom of heaven" to describe the same parable.

Matthew 13:31 KJV
(31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Mark 4:30 KJV
(30) And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

And that kingdom is established at his coming when he returns to earth, when the dead are raised and made incorruptible to inherit that kingdom.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So yes, when Jesus preached the kingdom while he was on the earth, that was the kingdom which he shall establish when he returns from heaven. Luke 19 has a very apt parable to illustrate that this kingdom is established when Christ returns, and not before.

Luke 19:11-12 KJV
(11) And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
(12) He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

The kingdom is of God because it is of God. The kingdom is of heaven because it is of heaven. Not "inside God" and not "inside heaven" but established from and by the power of and ruled by God and heaven. That's why it says "the kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God" and even "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:11).

2 Peter 1:11 KJV
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Luke 1:31-33 KJV
(31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

These are all the same thing. There will be One kingdom, one God, one Lord, one Spirit, one Christ, one body, one faith, one baptism.

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[steko]

1. When the bible says that someone is from Syria, it is safe to assume that they are Syrian unless stated otherwise. Likewise, when the bible says that someone is from Ethiopia, it is safe to assume they are Ethiopian unless stated otherwise. If the bible says they are from Judah, it is safe to assume they are Jewish unless stated otherwise. Do you see anyplace where that passage says "A Jew from Ethiopia?" I don't. Why should anyone assume that someone described as an Ethiopian was Jewish in the absence of any such statement?

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

2. Are you counting words in "confessions?" Are we saved by faith or saved by words?

Our confession is the verbal content of what it is that GOD requires us to believe in order to be saved... depending on which dispensation.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church[assembly]


Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


....................................................................................


1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[Rosenritter]

Yet you took the time to offer me an "If". If I play by your rules, you mean?

:think:

It's sometimes a good policy to give someone else's rules a try now and then: it may help show another angle of approaching a problem. For example, can you imagine what might happen if we (the general non-specific "we") had a discussion where everyone got to ask a question and had to answer the last question put to them? And if the question had to be cleanly defined? It might help eliminate a lot of rabbit trails.

 

[steko]

Here is my theory on that. Jesus said, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
Baptism completes the conversion of a Christian so Satan is going to do his best to prevent that. Just like the forbidden fruit. Simple law, eat and you will die but Satan added one simple word, "NOT".

I believe he has done the same with baptism. So this is what people believe today, whoever believes and is NOT baptized will be saved.

Perhaps Satan is happy that many are relying on their own self-righteous works of merit for salvation today, rather than simply trusting in Christ's imputed righteousness alone for their justification before GOD.


I don't buy into Walter Scott's five finger exercise as relevant for salvation today according to the Campbellite tradition.

Paul is Christ's Apostle to the nations and his ministry has replaced the ministry of the twelve as the Apostles to national Israel for the earthly Davidic Messianic Kingdom according to prophecy.

Trying to obey commandments for a different dispensation is an exercise in futility.

It is not consistent to pick one command out of Christ's instructions to the twelve before His ascension and ignore the rest. If one is binding, then they all are. His instructions were a unit to be obeyed and were to be confirmed by the miracles which they did.

If I agreed to travel to your location, perhaps you would lay your hands on me and heal my shoulder, my arthritic joints and the atrophied left calf muscle. For that matter, just heal my whole body while you're at it. GOD's power is without limit.
Oh, and after that, let's you and me go over to the hospital and clean it out.

 

[turbosixx]

... beings the conversion? I don't think that baptism completes conversion. Conversion implies changing to something else. I would describe baptism as the beginning of spiritual conversion, not the end.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV
(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

I see what you're saying. What I mean is, baptism completes us being put into Christ.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ
When we read of conversions, it's the last thing they do. A good example would be Paul. He did not have his sins "washed" away until he was baptized.
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

After we are added to Christ, we are definitely supposed to pursue maturity.

 

[turbosixx]

It is not consistent to pick one command out of Christ's instructions to the twelve before His ascension and ignore the rest.

I think this is a point where we might differ. From the beginning of Jesus's ministry to his ascension, something changed. Everything changed.

From your understanding, why was no one baptized in the name of Jesus until after his ascension? He sent the 12 & 70 out to proclaim the kingdom at hand. Why not have them baptize the disciples in his name then?

 

[glorydaz]

You see the preaching of the kingdom on earth as the same elephant as the kingdom in heaven?

Hmmmm.....

Where did you see anything called "the kingdom in heaven?"

"Kingdom in heaven" .... 0 verses found.

I think I see why you are confused... I am not sure what you are reading, but it is likely that your brain is substituting one phrase (with a different meaning) other than what it actually says in scripture. There is a big difference in meaning between "in" and "of."

Spoiler

I am familiar with a different phrase:

"Kingdom of heaven" ... 32 verses found.

The kingdom of heaven is established upon the earth, also called the kingdom of God or simply kingdom.

"Kingdom of God" ... 69 verses found.

Note that Matthew 19:23-24 below (and Luke 18:24-25) establish that "the kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God" are just two ways of saying the same thing.

Matthew 19:23-24 KJV
(23) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Also compare Matthew 13:31 with Mark 4:30 and Luke 13:19: Matthew uses "kingdom of God" whereas Mark and Luke use "kingdom of heaven" to describe the same parable.

Matthew 13:31 KJV
(31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Mark 4:30 KJV
(30) And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

And that kingdom is established at his coming when he returns to earth, when the dead are raised and made incorruptible to inherit that kingdom.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So yes, when Jesus preached the kingdom while he was on the earth, that was the kingdom which he shall establish when he returns from heaven. Luke 19 has a very apt parable to illustrate that this kingdom is established when Christ returns, and not before.

Luke 19:11-12 KJV
(11) And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
(12) He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

The kingdom is of God because it is of God. The kingdom is of heaven because it is of heaven. Not "inside God" and not "inside heaven" but established from and by the power of and ruled by God and heaven. That's why it says "the kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God" and even "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:11).

2 Peter 1:11 KJV
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Luke 1:31-33 KJV
(31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

These are all the same thing. There will be One kingdom, one God, one Lord, one Spirit, one Christ, one body, one faith, one baptism.

Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I'm not confused. I was merely trying to clarify WHERE this "elephant" you alluded to resides. The Gospel preached to the Jews was without the cross, and was a salvation from the world's unrighteous rulers. Then Israel would be ruled by Messiah seated upon the Throne of David here on earth. It was said to be "near at hand"...although it was postponed.

I contrasted that with IN HEAVEN because the members of the body of Christ are seated with Christ in heavenly places. The cross is preached and our faith is in the blood. Not so with the kingdom on earth.

Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

 

[glorydaz]

I see what you're saying. What I mean is, baptism completes us being put into Christ.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ
When we read of conversions, it's the last thing they do. A good example would be Paul. He did not have his sins "washed" away until he was baptized.
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

After we are added to Christ, we are definitely supposed to pursue maturity.

Notice the one baptism that saves is BY ONE SPIRIT...not by some man dunking us under water.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

 

[glorydaz]

It's sometimes a good policy to give someone else's rules a try now and then: it may help show another angle of approaching a problem. For example, can you imagine what might happen if we (the general non-specific "we") had a discussion where everyone got to ask a question and had to answer the last question put to them? And if the question had to be cleanly defined? It might help eliminate a lot of rabbit trails.

Yes indeed, and it would help immensely if people would stop assuming they knew why others were so "confused".

Wouldn't that be a welcome treat for all?

 

[turbosixx]

Notice the one baptism that saves is BY ONE SPIRIT...not by some man dunking us under water.

In 2 Kings 5, did Naaman dipping in the water cleanse his leprosy?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

In the beginning of the letter, what baptism do you believe they were baptized with when they were converted?
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[glorydaz]

In 2 Kings 5, did Naaman dipping in the water cleanse his leprosy?



In the beginning of the letter, what baptism do you believe they were baptized with when they were converted?
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

I don't know. I imagine in the early church many had undergone baptism. It was not to be forbidden to the Gentiles, and was a baptism WITH the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45-48 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.​

Still not the one baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm not confused. I was merely trying to clarify WHERE this "elephant" you alluded to resides. The Gospel preached to the Jews was without the cross, and was a salvation from the world's unrighteous rulers. Then Israel would be ruled by Messiah seated upon the Throne of David here on earth. It was said to be "near at hand"...although it was postponed.

I contrasted that with IN HEAVEN because the members of the body of Christ are seated with Christ in heavenly places. The cross is preached and our faith is in the blood. Not so with the kingdom on earth.

Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

The gospel preached to the Jews is the gospel of the cross. That's the nature of this "elephant" ... people think "this is a trunk" and "that is a tail" and use logic like "the trunk is not a tail" and declare that they've got different animals.

John 3:14-15 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

That there, the brazed serpent ... is Christ, lifted upon the cross, that whomsoever should look upon him might live.

John 12:32-33 KJV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

That there, is Christ repeating the gospel of the cross.

Exodus 12:21-23 KJV
(21) Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
(22) And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
(23) For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

That there is the Lamb of God upon the cross whose blood redeems from death. The blood is struck vertically and horizontally, and the lamb is roasted on a spit, with one piece of wood running along its spine and the other through legs... in a cross. Those who accept his blood and this cross live, those that do not perish.

But where did you get the rest of that? "Jesus ... preached a Gospel to the Jews without a cross of salvation from the world's unrighteous rulers?" and "... Israel would be ruled by Messiah seated upon the Throne of David here on earth ... [but] it was postponed?" Is my rewording accurate?

Israel will be ruled by Messiah (who is of the throne of David) upon the earth ... as well as every other nation and people that exists, when He returns. It is called the Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of Heaven, or simply "the kingdom." Not two elephants.

 

[glorydaz]

The gospel preached to the Jews is the gospel of the cross. That's the nature of this "elephant" ... people think "this is a trunk" and "that is a tail" and use logic like "the trunk is not a tail" and declare that they've got different animals.

John 3:14-15 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

That there, the brazed serpent ... is Christ, lifted upon the cross, that whomsoever should look upon him might live.

John 12:32-33 KJV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

That there, is Christ repeating the gospel of the cross.

Exodus 12:21-23 KJV
(21) Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
(22) And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
(23) For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

That there is the Lamb of God upon the cross whose blood redeems from death. The blood is struck vertically and horizontally, and the lamb is roasted on a spit, with one piece of wood running along its spine and the other through legs... in a cross. Those who accept his blood and this cross live, those that do not perish.

But where did you get the rest of that? "Jesus ... preached a Gospel to the Jews without a cross of salvation from the world's unrighteous rulers?" and "... Israel would be ruled by Messiah seated upon the Throne of David here on earth ... [but] it was postponed?" Is my rewording accurate?

Israel will be ruled by Messiah (who is of the throne of David) upon the earth ... as well as every other nation and people that exists, when He returns. It is called the Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of Heaven, or simply "the kingdom." Not two elephants.

No, your rewording was not accurate, but no matter.

The "gospel of the cross" is not His being "lifted up". It is not the Passover. It is not being "roasted on a spit" in the shape of the cross. It is a mystery revealed to Paul only after Christ's resurrection.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

The kingdom Gospel was also preaching Jesus Christ. Of His coming to establish His kingdom on earth, BUT He was crucified instead. That "elephant" got shot down, and will be brought back to life when Jesus returns in all His Glory.

In the mean time, Paul's Gospel is totally different. It speaks of the our being created IN CHRIST JESUS. Not our dwelling in an earthy kingdom.

Colossians 1:26-28
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:​

Paul's gospel speaks of our being crucified with Christ through faith in His blood, and risen with Him in newness of life. You won't find that in any of the verses you cited, and it's a whole new beast. A whole NEW CREATION.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

Death, burial, and resurrection....we become partakers with Him...making us new creations IN HIM.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

 

[turbosixx]

I don't know. I imagine in the early church many had undergone baptism. It was not to be forbidden to the Gentiles, and was a baptism WITH the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45-48 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.​

The Corinthians were NOT baptized WITH the Holy Spirit. Why were the Jews astonished that the Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, one reason was because they had only seen baptism WITH the Spirit one other time.
Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’


Consider what Paul says to the Corinthians. Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? Paul is making a point. They were not baptized into his name but into Jesus's name when they believed.

The verse you quoted makes it perfectly clear what baptized "in the name of" is. Even though the gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, Peter commands they be water baptized "in the name of" Jesus. Water and Spirit go together.
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That is why Paul baptized believers, like those in Corinth.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

Still not the one baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

Do you have another passage that supports the idea that we are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ and no water is involved?

I suggest to you what that actually means is when a person believes the gospel and are baptized "in the name of" Jesus the Holy Spirit adds them to Christ. Here we see it plainly.
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Those who believe were baptized and added. The Holy Spirit did the adding, not the apostles.
2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. God added those who believed and were water baptized.

The Corinthian brethren were water baptized "in the name of" Jesus and then God put them into Christ. That is what 1 Cor. 12:13 means.

 

[Clete]

Jesus says it does.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Did getting wet have anything to do with Naaman being cleansed?

There were many baptisms as well as a whole list of other religious rituals that one was required to perform as a member of the nation of Israel.

This specific topic, and Mark 16:16 in particular, was what caused my Sunday school teacher to blow his top and kick me out of my 6th grade Sunday School class because I dared challenge him on this topic. Water baptism was a pretty big pet doctrine in that particular church. What was ridiculous was that I hadn't been disrespectful at all. I simply made a simple comment displaying a very childishly simplistic argument. I had remarked that Acts 16:31 states simply that "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved..." Therefore, since one makes no mention of baptism, the only way for both verses to be true is if it's belief that's required and not both. If both were required, both verse would have listed both things.

Now, that is NOT a valid argument whatsoever but it was enough to convince my 6th grade mind and sufficient to throw my Sunday School teacher into hysterics. (He was later removed from the position by the way. I really was innocent of having done anything wrong at all. All the other kids in the class came to my defense and it ended up causing quite a kerfuffle.) The only reason I bring it up is to say that I've debated this specific topic for a very very long time and that the arguments presented by professionals preachers and degreed theologians were insufficient to convince me, even as a naive child, that water baptism had anything to do with getting saved. The closest they came was to have me convinced that getting wet was something one did AFTER they were saved. In fact, I have yet to find a person who believes baptism saves you who was willing to state that a person who has accepted Christ but who dies on his way to the baptismal waters, does so in his sin and is condemned because he hadn't yet gotten dunked.

One last thing. The issue of water baptism very commonly comes up during a discussion about dispensationalism, especially Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. People who think that the gospel has never changed, almost always believe that water baptism is an absolute requirement. Those individuals are never going to agree with my version of the gospel proper but there's no way to convince them short of converting them to Mid-Acts Dispensationalism because there was very clearly a time when it was indeed a required ritual. There was also a time BEFORE it was a required ritual but that fact doesn't seem to phase them either. The point being that debating either water baptism or dispensationalism isn't the point of the thread and that I, after several decades of thinking about the issue, am firmly convinced that, at most, water baptism is a ritual preformed by people who are already saved. In fact, my personal belief is that if one is trusting in baptism to save them, they may as well go get themselves circumcised as well and start worshiping on Saturdays and covering their heads while praying. I, therefore, won't be including it in the list.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Don't take this post as me asking anyone to stop discussing anything. I anticipated from the start that this would generate a discussion about water baptism and/or dispensationalism so have at it.

 

[Rosenritter]

No, your rewording was not accurate, but no matter.

Rewording what is said is pretty important: it helps ensure that there isn't misunderstanding. I used almost the exact words. What is the difference?

The "gospel of the cross" is not His being "lifted up". It is not the Passover. It is not being "roasted on a spit" in the shape of the cross. It is a mystery revealed to Paul only after Christ's resurrection.

The gospel is the message of salvation and eternal life. Christ being lifted up and the Lamb that is slain and it the cross are all symbols that represent the gospel. And while this gospel message may have been mysterious and presented in symbol and shadow in times of old, it was not "only revealed to Paul" (That's rather absurd.)

Matthew 24:14 KJV
(14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If you were to say that Paul was used as a messenger of that gospel, and that much revelation was revealed to Paul I would agree. But to say that the gospel was "only revealed to Paul" is contrary to the express words of scripture, even of Christ.

Luke 7:22 KJV
(22) Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Acts 15:7-12 KJV
(7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
(8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(12) Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

I'd say your prior assessment was wrong. Peter was chosen by God to preach the gospel unto the gentiles. He did preach and they did believe, and they were baptized and received the Holy Spirit. Paul was there when Peter said these things and so he wasn't claiming that he was the sole recipient of the gospel!

Romans 16:25-26 KJV
(25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Let's try reading Romans 16 again: I'll call your attention to some points that I think you're passing over:

Romans 16:25-26 KJV(25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1. Please notice that Paul also defines his gospel as the preaching of Jesus Christ.
2. Please notice that this gospel is made manifest by the teachings of the prophets.

"Kept secret" does not mean that no one understands. People "keep secrets" all the time and it is readily acknowledged that some people do know the secret ... and it is still considered secret until it is fully revealed. When Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached unto all the nations, then it is no longer to be kept secret.

The kingdom Gospel was also preaching Jesus Christ. Of His coming to establish His kingdom on earth, BUT He was crucified instead. That "elephant" got shot down, and will be brought back to life when Jesus returns in all His Glory.

So you are saying that Jesus FAILED, that his being crucified was a FAILURE and a MISTAKE that prevented him from accomplishing his gospel? That he had to put this off until later???

:bang:

In the mean time, Paul's Gospel is totally different. It speaks of the our being created IN CHRIST JESUS. Not our dwelling in an earthy kingdom.

Colossians 1:26-28
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
​

I think that you entirely do not understand Jesus in the gospels. Jesus didn't preach about an earthly kingdom. Do you remember his words during his trial? For that matter, he says why he came into this world, and it wasn't to establish an earthly kingdom as you just suggested!​

John 18:36-37 KJV
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
(37) Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Paul's gospel speaks of our being crucified with Christ through faith in His blood, and risen with Him in newness of life. You won't find that in any of the verses you cited, and it's a whole new beast. A whole NEW CREATION.

I certainly see Jesus speaking of being crucified with him in the gospels. Using a search on key words might help, like "cross" for example.

Matthew 10:38-39 KJV
(38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
(39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:24-25 KJV
(24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
(25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

 

[Rosenritter]

The verse you quoted makes it perfectly clear what baptized "in the name of" is. Even though the gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, Peter commands they be water baptized "in the name of" Jesus. Water and Spirit go together.
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That is why Paul baptized believers, like those in Corinth.

Turbo, I am not disagreeing with your other points, but I think you took John 3:5 out of context. The context shows that it isn't talking about water baptism. Here's the statement of Christ which triggered that dialogue:

John 3:3 KJV
(3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4-6 KJV
(4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

A man is physically born of water, and everyone that has ever lived (save Adam and Eve) was born of water being born of a woman. Nicodemus heard the word "born" and understood this in the literal physical sense as evidenced by his reference to the mother's womb. Jesus responds that a man must be born of both water and spirit.

To clarify his meaning of "water" Jesus continues with "that which is born of the flesh is flesh." Being born of water is being born of the flesh. The parallel continues: that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Born of water = born of the flesh = IS flesh
Born of the Spirit = born of the spirit = IS spirit.

Why the word "water?" The mother's womb is surrounded by water, and a flow of water signals the beginning of the birth.

During pregnancy, your baby is surrounded and cushioned by a fluid-filled membranous sac called the amniotic sac. Typically, at the beginning of or during labor your membranes will rupture — also known as your water breaking. If your water breaks before labor starts, it's called premature rupture of membranes (PROM).Oct 18, 2016

Water breaking: Understand this sign of labor - Mayo Clinic


https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/labor-and.../water-breaking/art-20044142

 

[Clete]

No, your rewording was not accurate, but no matter.

The "gospel of the cross" is not His being "lifted up". It is not the Passover. It is not being "roasted on a spit" in the shape of the cross. It is a mystery revealed to Paul only after Christ's resurrection.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

The kingdom Gospel was also preaching Jesus Christ. Of His coming to establish His kingdom on earth, BUT He was crucified instead. That "elephant" got shot down, and will be brought back to life when Jesus returns in all His Glory.

In the mean time, Paul's Gospel is totally different. It speaks of the our being created IN CHRIST JESUS. Not our dwelling in an earthy kingdom.

Colossians 1:26-28
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:​

Paul's gospel speaks of our being crucified with Christ through faith in His blood, and risen with Him in newness of life. You won't find that in any of the verses you cited, and it's a whole new beast. A whole NEW CREATION.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

Death, burial, and resurrection....we become partakers with Him...making us new creations IN HIM.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

Just want to make one point about this post...

It wasn't Christ's death that "shot down the elephant", as you put it, it was the death of Stephen.