Did you write that article? It sounds familiar to me. I agree with you 100%. However, without the paper and ink we know nothing, nor can we prove anything. The Bible is the guiding light that enlightens everyman. Without the Bible we can be led astray. The Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth helps us to understand what the Bible is saying, he interprets scripture and teaches us truth. We cannot trust in our experiences and feelings because they are not always of the Spirit. We are still sinners that are prone to sin. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit are compatible, simply because those that wrote the Bible were indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
"The Gospel Plus Nothing and Nothing But the Gospel"
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Did you write that article? It sounds familiar to me. I agree with you 100%. However, without the paper and ink we know nothing, nor can we prove anything. The Bible is the guiding light that enlightens everyman. Without the Bible we can be led astray. The Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth helps us to understand what the Bible is saying, he interprets scripture and teaches us truth. We cannot trust in our experiences and feelings because they are not always of the Spirit. We are still sinners that are prone to sin. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit are compatible, simply because those that wrote the Bible were indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
beloved57
Well-known member
Did the Holy Spirit guide you into teaching Salvation by man doing requirements ? Also did He guide you into denying the Saving Blood of Christ as you do ?
Man can't do anything to merit salvation. I have never taught that you can meet a requirement that will save you. You are confused and believe that faith in Christ is a requirement. Your every thought must fit into your Calvinist mold or you must reject it. Without faith in Christ you will never see heaven. Faith is what justifies us and makes us friends with God.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1.
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach law salvation, requirement salvation,same thing.
RealityJerk
New member
Robert Pate writes:
" Did you write that article? It sounds familiar to me. "
Response:
Yes
Robert Pate Writes:
" I agree with you 100%. However, without the paper and ink we know nothing, nor can we prove anything."
Response:
Really? So when I witnessed a creative healing miracle in Jesus name, was that the result of paper and ink? When I pray and worship, and experience the presence of God in my life and he touches my conscience, guiding me to what is good, is that paper and ink? My personal experience and relationship with God, is paper and ink? What book, did Enoch have? According to "the book", that your relationship with God relies so much on, Enoch walked with God and God took him. Did enough walk with God, with a King James bible under his arm, or did he just walk with God?
We can walk with the Living God, in faith, and we will experience His presence. Like I mentioned earlier, in my previous post, you either have it or you don't. You either get it or you don't. The witness or proof of Christ, is not a book. If you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, you know that. You know it. A person, hooked on drugs, hears the message of Christ, and is moved, shaken, from within, and led to the foot of the cross, in a state of repentance. That's a supernatural event, a miracle. It has nothing to do with book knowledge, or paper and ink.
Your child, knows you. That child doesn't have much knowledge about you. Hasn't read your biography or performed a "psychoanalysis" evaluation on you. That child may not have much knowledge, about you, but still knows his daddy. He knows his daddy. His spirit, his soul, resonates, with yours. You are both connected to one another, in a very real way, that defies science, "empirical evidence". You know and love your son and he loves being in the presence of his daddy. He knows his dad loves him, because he feels it, from within.
You have a relationship with GOD, your heavenly Father and Creator, through His Living, Eternal Word, embodied in Christ (not a book). Through Christ. You have experienced that, if you are born from above. This relationship, does not rely on a book, written by men, thousands of years ago. You have to have the spirit of God, to identify that which is profitable, for instruction. With an ancient book, you may glean some insight into God's past interactions and dealings with those who have come before you. But to claim, that "the book" is "inerrant", flawless, infallible, perfect, is a serious error. It's an erroneous, unnecessary, untenable assumption, that actually undermines your ability, your sensitivity, to God's real presence. Your reliance on God's spirit. That takes faith and courage. A special level of commitment to God.
There are no inerrant, infallible books in this world, because all of them are written, copied, "preserved" as best as men can preserve them, by errant, fallible men. The messengers are themselves subject to error and corruption, hence God reveals Himself to YOU, at the point of absolute certainty. Where is that? Your being, your conscious self, your mind, your spirit / inner-man, there is the evidence. This is subjective, and it takes humility, faith, to admit it. It's scary. It takes courage, to admit, that all we have is a personal relationship with God, that must be cultivated.
It's not as easy, as having a book under your arm. A sack full of answers. You have "certainty", all of the answers, right there, in the book. "THE BOOK" that provides clear "proof" and "certainty". I hit people over the head with it. It's THE BOOK. All of the answers are there, clearly spelled out. My left brain loves it, it's right there, objectively presented, on paper, written in ink, in English. KJV. Not much faith is required here, I have my sack full of answers. Not only that, but my interpretation of what I am reading, is it itself, correct, inerrant, infallible and clear. It's very clear to me, that this is what it is saying, hence you should (YOU MUST), agree. Right?
You must agree, with me, or now I question whether you are a disciple of Christ. Whether you actually are born from above, born again. Perhaps you aren't? Actually, I'm quite sure you're not, because you don't agree with me. I guess, we're not brothers in Christ anymore. We can't even be friends. I'm going over there, to start my own church (circus}. I'll pray for you.....
We all want that sack full of answers. That "infallible book", that doesn't require us to pursue God in faith and courage. We need everything spelled out, right there, crystal clear. No need to get on my knees and cry before the Lord, for wisdom and REVELATION. Praying and praising Him, in the spirit. It's not about my personal relationship with Christ and growing, maturing in Him, walking with Him. It's about acquiring knowledge. That old tree of knowledge. Being able to cite verses from that book, that I have, figured out. I have knowledge, but I don't know God. I'm a master polemicist, highly skilled in rhetoric, well educated, but actually, I know nothing. I'm dead wood. A dry desert. I'm an idiot.
My brothers and sisters, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. The truth is a person, not a book. Authentic Christianity, isn't a book religion. If all of the books in the world, disappeared today, the reality of God within you, that relationship you have with God, would still be present and just as real.
Those that have the truth, are guided by the spirit of God. They are set apart and made right, with him, with or without a book. There is no particular book, in this world that is perfect. A book's value to the Christian, is measured by how it effects their relationship with God. That's something that is determined personally. No one has the right to judge or condemn another person, on the bases of what books they acknowledge or don't acknowledge as "God's Infallible Word book". The only Infalliable Word Of God is the person of Jesus Christ. That's all.
Whatever is edifying and instructional, for the believer, is good. Profitable. But, there is no such thing as an inerrant, infallible book. The only WORD OF GOD, is Christ in you, the hope of glory. That's it. Believe what you wish.
You either get what I'm saying or you don't.
" Did you write that article? It sounds familiar to me. "
Response:
Yes
Robert Pate Writes:
" I agree with you 100%. However, without the paper and ink we know nothing, nor can we prove anything."
Response:
Really? So when I witnessed a creative healing miracle in Jesus name, was that the result of paper and ink? When I pray and worship, and experience the presence of God in my life and he touches my conscience, guiding me to what is good, is that paper and ink? My personal experience and relationship with God, is paper and ink? What book, did Enoch have? According to "the book", that your relationship with God relies so much on, Enoch walked with God and God took him. Did enough walk with God, with a King James bible under his arm, or did he just walk with God?
We can walk with the Living God, in faith, and we will experience His presence. Like I mentioned earlier, in my previous post, you either have it or you don't. You either get it or you don't. The witness or proof of Christ, is not a book. If you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, you know that. You know it. A person, hooked on drugs, hears the message of Christ, and is moved, shaken, from within, and led to the foot of the cross, in a state of repentance. That's a supernatural event, a miracle. It has nothing to do with book knowledge, or paper and ink.
Your child, knows you. That child doesn't have much knowledge about you. Hasn't read your biography or performed a "psychoanalysis" evaluation on you. That child may not have much knowledge, about you, but still knows his daddy. He knows his daddy. His spirit, his soul, resonates, with yours. You are both connected to one another, in a very real way, that defies science, "empirical evidence". You know and love your son and he loves being in the presence of his daddy. He knows his dad loves him, because he feels it, from within.
You have a relationship with GOD, your heavenly Father and Creator, through His Living, Eternal Word, embodied in Christ (not a book). Through Christ. You have experienced that, if you are born from above. This relationship, does not rely on a book, written by men, thousands of years ago. You have to have the spirit of God, to identify that which is profitable, for instruction. With an ancient book, you may glean some insight into God's past interactions and dealings with those who have come before you. But to claim, that "the book" is "inerrant", flawless, infallible, perfect, is a serious error. It's an erroneous, unnecessary, untenable assumption, that actually undermines your ability, your sensitivity, to God's real presence. Your reliance on God's spirit. That takes faith and courage. A special level of commitment to God.
There are no inerrant, infallible books in this world, because all of them are written, copied, "preserved" as best as men can preserve them, by errant, fallible men. The messengers are themselves subject to error and corruption, hence God reveals Himself to YOU, at the point of absolute certainty. Where is that? Your being, your conscious self, your mind, your spirit / inner-man, there is the evidence. This is subjective, and it takes humility, faith, to admit it. It's scary. It takes courage, to admit, that all we have is a personal relationship with God, that must be cultivated.
It's not as easy, as having a book under your arm. A sack full of answers. You have "certainty", all of the answers, right there, in the book. "THE BOOK" that provides clear "proof" and "certainty". I hit people over the head with it. It's THE BOOK. All of the answers are there, clearly spelled out. My left brain loves it, it's right there, objectively presented, on paper, written in ink, in English. KJV. Not much faith is required here, I have my sack full of answers. Not only that, but my interpretation of what I am reading, is it itself, correct, inerrant, infallible and clear. It's very clear to me, that this is what it is saying, hence you should (YOU MUST), agree. Right?
You must agree, with me, or now I question whether you are a disciple of Christ. Whether you actually are born from above, born again. Perhaps you aren't? Actually, I'm quite sure you're not, because you don't agree with me. I guess, we're not brothers in Christ anymore. We can't even be friends. I'm going over there, to start my own church (circus}. I'll pray for you.....
We all want that sack full of answers. That "infallible book", that doesn't require us to pursue God in faith and courage. We need everything spelled out, right there, crystal clear. No need to get on my knees and cry before the Lord, for wisdom and REVELATION. Praying and praising Him, in the spirit. It's not about my personal relationship with Christ and growing, maturing in Him, walking with Him. It's about acquiring knowledge. That old tree of knowledge. Being able to cite verses from that book, that I have, figured out. I have knowledge, but I don't know God. I'm a master polemicist, highly skilled in rhetoric, well educated, but actually, I know nothing. I'm dead wood. A dry desert. I'm an idiot.
My brothers and sisters, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. The truth is a person, not a book. Authentic Christianity, isn't a book religion. If all of the books in the world, disappeared today, the reality of God within you, that relationship you have with God, would still be present and just as real.
Those that have the truth, are guided by the spirit of God. They are set apart and made right, with him, with or without a book. There is no particular book, in this world that is perfect. A book's value to the Christian, is measured by how it effects their relationship with God. That's something that is determined personally. No one has the right to judge or condemn another person, on the bases of what books they acknowledge or don't acknowledge as "God's Infallible Word book". The only Infalliable Word Of God is the person of Jesus Christ. That's all.
Whatever is edifying and instructional, for the believer, is good. Profitable. But, there is no such thing as an inerrant, infallible book. The only WORD OF GOD, is Christ in you, the hope of glory. That's it. Believe what you wish.
You either get what I'm saying or you don't.
The only way that you know that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life is because you either read it in the bible or someone else read it and told you about it, John 14:6.
There are some that worship their Bible, I am not one of them. If it was not for the Bible and others that read the Bible, I would not understand what it means to be justified by faith, nor would I know what Christ has accomplished for me in the Gospel. The writings of the apostle Paul are priceless. It is a real shame that you depriving yourself of those wonderful truths.
RealityJerk
New member
Robert Pate writes:
"The only way that you know that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life is because you either read it in the bible or someone else read it and told you about it, John 14:6."
Response:
Is Jesus, the way, the truth and the life, because the supposed, perfect, infallible book mentions that fact, or is Jesus in his own right, completely independent of the book, the way, the truth and the life? Is Christ's identity and existence, his person, contingent upon it being written, in a book? The fact that, many of the words, teachings of Christ, are found in the bible, doesn't imply, that every word in that book, in that bible, is the infallible word of God. My relationship with Christ, my experience and interaction with Him, is not based on a book.
The actual letters of Paul or those attributed to him, are just that. Letters written by Paul or written by someone else, in his name. Paul isn't God, nor are all of his words, necessarily good. Your salvation, doesn't hinge, depend on, you accepting or rejecting Paul's letters. No one has the authority to impose books on the children of God. The only time in history, when the children of God, had to accept a written text, as divinely inspired, was when Moses received it directly from heaven, written by God himself on tablets of stone. Millions of Israelites were there to witness that event.
God gave them, a set of general laws, commandments, principles, to live by. This is a historical fact, confirmed by the Holy Spirit, to every child of God. Those who actually have a relationship with Him, know what is true and what isn't. They can detect, decipher, the genuine from the counterfeit. Those who have a relationship with a book, are spiritually bankrupt and in a state of delusion. Show them, how their bible isn't infallible, or agrees with their cherished religious assumptions, and their "faith" crumbles, like a dry, saltine cracker.
They don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ, they have a relationship with a set of theological theories and opinions, that give them a false sense of security. Warm and fuzzy feelings.
"The only way that you know that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life is because you either read it in the bible or someone else read it and told you about it, John 14:6."
Response:
Is Jesus, the way, the truth and the life, because the supposed, perfect, infallible book mentions that fact, or is Jesus in his own right, completely independent of the book, the way, the truth and the life? Is Christ's identity and existence, his person, contingent upon it being written, in a book? The fact that, many of the words, teachings of Christ, are found in the bible, doesn't imply, that every word in that book, in that bible, is the infallible word of God. My relationship with Christ, my experience and interaction with Him, is not based on a book.
The actual letters of Paul or those attributed to him, are just that. Letters written by Paul or written by someone else, in his name. Paul isn't God, nor are all of his words, necessarily good. Your salvation, doesn't hinge, depend on, you accepting or rejecting Paul's letters. No one has the authority to impose books on the children of God. The only time in history, when the children of God, had to accept a written text, as divinely inspired, was when Moses received it directly from heaven, written by God himself on tablets of stone. Millions of Israelites were there to witness that event.
God gave them, a set of general laws, commandments, principles, to live by. This is a historical fact, confirmed by the Holy Spirit, to every child of God. Those who actually have a relationship with Him, know what is true and what isn't. They can detect, decipher, the genuine from the counterfeit. Those who have a relationship with a book, are spiritually bankrupt and in a state of delusion. Show them, how their bible isn't infallible, or agrees with their cherished religious assumptions, and their "faith" crumbles, like a dry, saltine cracker.
They don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ, they have a relationship with a set of theological theories and opinions, that give them a false sense of security. Warm and fuzzy feelings.
Brilliant!
Did you really ask such a stupid question?
Tell us what your 'relationship' is.
Tell us what your experience is.
Tell us what your interaction with Him is.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?
That is not the only time.
Oh, so the book is not infallible, but your are.
What are we supposed to check in order to see if what you are spouting off is really true or not?
Your own set of warm and fuzzy feelings, or the book?
Scripture of course
Acts 17:11 New International Version (NIV)
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
The New Testament is not a Christian Torah. The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Christ and his Gospel. Paul was a chosen apostle that took the Gospel to the pagan world. You will never know or understand all that God has done for you in Jesus Christ until you read it in the Bible.
RealityJerk
New member
Tambora writes:
Did you really ask such a stupid question?
Response:
It might seem stupid to you, but the question is a valid one. Christ's identity and existence, his person, is obviously not contingent upon it being written about or mentioned in a book. Christ existed, as the way, the truth and the life, before your book-idol was written, by God knows who.
Tambora writes:
Tell us what your 'relationship' is.
Tell us what your experience is.
Tell us what your interaction with Him is.
Response:
Do I have to tell you anything? Who is "us" ? Do I have to convince you of something to establish a relationship with my creator? My relationship, experience. interaction, is mine, perhaps you have yours. Perhaps not.
Tambora writes:
"Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you? "
Response:
How do you know Jesus and Paul, did you read about them in your "infallible" book? Do you really "know" Jesus, or just what you read in your book? Perhaps you just have a relationship with a book, not with Jesus.
Tambora:
Oh, so the book is not infallible, but your are.What are we supposed to check in order to see if what you are spouting off is really true or not?
Your own set of warm and fuzzy feelings, or the book?
Response:
No, I'm not infallible. That's the point Tambora. We are not infallible, hence the truth God expects you and I to know and acknowledge, for our own good, is not a book written, copied and preserved by fallible men and their corrupt institutions, organizations, denominations..etc. You without warrant or authority, demand that Christ's disciples accept every word in your book, as God's word, but there's no necessity or reason for anyone to assume such nonsense.
Salvation is a miracle. God draws whom he wills, to salvation and those who are actually saved, know God. They've experienced Him, in their lives. There's a real change, transformation, that occurs, when a person is saved and has a relationship with God. There's no divine mandate, for recognizing that what you call "the bible" is the "inerrant word of God". The word of God, is a person, not a book. Believe what you want, and in the end, we will all see who bore the most fruit for the kingdom.
Did you really ask such a stupid question?
Response:
It might seem stupid to you, but the question is a valid one. Christ's identity and existence, his person, is obviously not contingent upon it being written about or mentioned in a book. Christ existed, as the way, the truth and the life, before your book-idol was written, by God knows who.
Tambora writes:
Tell us what your 'relationship' is.
Tell us what your experience is.
Tell us what your interaction with Him is.
Response:
Do I have to tell you anything? Who is "us" ? Do I have to convince you of something to establish a relationship with my creator? My relationship, experience. interaction, is mine, perhaps you have yours. Perhaps not.
Tambora writes:
"Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you? "
Response:
How do you know Jesus and Paul, did you read about them in your "infallible" book? Do you really "know" Jesus, or just what you read in your book? Perhaps you just have a relationship with a book, not with Jesus.
Tambora:
Oh, so the book is not infallible, but your are.What are we supposed to check in order to see if what you are spouting off is really true or not?
Your own set of warm and fuzzy feelings, or the book?
Response:
No, I'm not infallible. That's the point Tambora. We are not infallible, hence the truth God expects you and I to know and acknowledge, for our own good, is not a book written, copied and preserved by fallible men and their corrupt institutions, organizations, denominations..etc. You without warrant or authority, demand that Christ's disciples accept every word in your book, as God's word, but there's no necessity or reason for anyone to assume such nonsense.
Salvation is a miracle. God draws whom he wills, to salvation and those who are actually saved, know God. They've experienced Him, in their lives. There's a real change, transformation, that occurs, when a person is saved and has a relationship with God. There's no divine mandate, for recognizing that what you call "the bible" is the "inerrant word of God". The word of God, is a person, not a book. Believe what you want, and in the end, we will all see who bore the most fruit for the kingdom.
Sounds to me like you are a cross between an atheist and a Calvinist. Without the Bible we know nothing about God or his Son Jesus Christ. It is very obvious that is where you are at.
RealityJerk
New member
You will not understand what Jesus has done for you, until you establish a relationship with Him. That has nothing to do with a book, written by men, who you've never met or know. I was drawn to Christ, by the Spirit, not be a supposed infallible book. The book is profitable, when accompanied by genuine spiritual discernment. If you comprehend what I'm saying, you'll realize I'm not throwing the bible in the waste basket. It has its place, in the Christian's life, but it is not the inerrant, infallible word of God. Nor does this book, which edifies and inspired us, instructing us in the way of God's kingdom, necessarily comprised of 66 books, written works, letters..etc.
Our faith is not based on books. Rabbinic Judaism, Islam, these are book religions, and that's why they're spiritually dead. That's what Christianity becomes, when it deifies a book. Makes it the infallible, inerrant, "word of God". It's mostly the word of men, at best, the word of God, transmitted through imperfect, corrupt human vessels. This is apparent, to any honest, truth loving person, who has an actual relationship with Jesus Christ.
Our faith is not based on books. Rabbinic Judaism, Islam, these are book religions, and that's why they're spiritually dead. That's what Christianity becomes, when it deifies a book. Makes it the infallible, inerrant, "word of God". It's mostly the word of men, at best, the word of God, transmitted through imperfect, corrupt human vessels. This is apparent, to any honest, truth loving person, who has an actual relationship with Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.
:thumb:
Had our "new" poster simply explained that God can save mankind that has never been exposed to the Bible... by His Holy Spirit... and stopped there... I would have given them positive props...
However... it appears that they don't think God can protect His John 5:39 of the matter...
So... again :thumb: and.... :e4e:
How is it that you speak "Jesus Only" a million different ways that are compelling and valuable... and you manage the ruffle feathers anyways? :idunno:
I always enjoy reading what you write and draw much blessing from it.
- EE
The early church did not have a Bible. Everything was communicated by word of mouth. How do you think that worked?
Amen! Old Father Abe didn't either... or Noah for that matter... and faith landed them both a spot in Hebrews Chapter 11!
RealityJerk
New member
It's quite obvious, that you don't have much of a relationship with the living God, but rather with a book. I guess according to you, Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, were right on the edge of becoming atheists and didn't know God. They didn't know of your magical, divine, infallible book, hence how could they know God? The only infallible, is God, the God that dwells within the hearts of His children. God gave the children of Israel, laws. Principles. There are eternal, inerrant, infallible principles or laws. Immutable, divine ideals and truths. To the extent that a book, aligns itself, its message, with those eternal laws and produces good fruit, it is profitable and good. Those who belong to Jesus Christ, walking with Him, know what is good instruction and what isn't. It's called, wisdom. That only comes by having a relationship with God, not a supposed "infallible book".